French farming subsidies

[SaligoBay]

Another request for the kind of knowledge I don't possess.  Here goes.  I have a friend.  Oh yes I have.   And he's not impressed with France.   He likes visiting and can see why we're here, but doesn't like it up at that International Relations level (sorry, but I can't think what else to call it).

So, I can answer most of his criticisms, but this old chestnut has just re-appeared, and I'm completely stumped.  

Whilst french farmers get paid to grow things that nobody wants (or to not grow anything) African farmers starve because they cannot get into their produce into world markets despite being able to grow their crops more cheaply. Not that the Brits can crow because some farmers here still get subsidies but the French are way out in front as far as Europe is concerned because nobody has been able to get around the deal the French worked with German consent about 50 years ago during the early days of the EU.

How true is this?  My researches all come up with the same sort of stuff, and I can't work out where the truth is, if such a thing exists.

Points will be deducted for gratuitous/irrelevant criticism of Britain - I want to know where FRANCE fits into it all!

Thank you.   

[Iceni]

Many of the cheap flowers you buy in shops and more importantly supermarkets come from Africa, the ethics of this is very suspect when you take into consideration the damage that this causes to the land and also the waste of water which is in short supply. Wonder what the Dutch think of these imports?

Having lived in Africa, I did not notice many native crops growing that we would eat. Some countries do grow special crops for exports such as green beans and other specific western veggies but the locals never get the chance to eat them - they are grown to get hard currency.

Round here there is very low intensity farming. No chemicals. Sheep, cows, goats and maize so the farmers can feed said animals in the winter. If subsidies keep this type of landscape in existence then to me it is money well spent.

Sugar, now that it another kettle of fish and one fish-kettle I don't want to get involved with.

Q - why is NZ lamb so cheap in France and so expensive in the UK???????? (damn, I bet I lost a point for that )

[Jo53]

Sorry, but I would eat my hat if your local farmers, or any farmers, grow maize without chemicals. Maize actually uses the most harmful pesticides/herbicides of any of the main European crops, to the extent that the main maize agrochemical is due to be banned in the EU either now or very soon. It will of be replaced with another product.

Jo

[Teamedup]

Iceni, NZ lamb used to be very rare in France and when we saw it it was expensive.

Then an odd thing happened we had the debacle, no wrong word, french spies commited an act of what is generally known as terrorism/sabotage(only they didn't use sabots) and blew up the Rainbow Warrior. And lo and behold, all the diplomacy was sorted and once the spies had been repatriated to France....... and I believe one of them was actually honored. NZ lamb started appearing and cheaply too at around this point.

Not that either of these events were in anyway linked ofcourse, just pure coincidence

 

Sorry Saligo don't know about farming subsidies. Have you looked on INSEE.

 

[Patf]

This is hearsay and can't quote sources, but we heard that there is to be a reduction in some EU subsidies this year, mainly affecting farming livestock. Some farmers in our commune are applying to change from livestock to crops. Has anyone else heard this? Pat.

[Linnorton]

[quote]Many of the cheap flowers you buy in shops and more importantly supermarkets come from Africa, the ethics of this is very suspect when you take into consideration the damage that this causes to the la...[/quote]

Don't know what the Dutch think about African grown flowers but guess it's much the same as African market gardeners think about the Dutch dumping their second grade vegetables on the African market, effectively ruining the market for traditional growers.  Add food and flower miles into the equation and nothing makes sense to me.

[Iceni]

[quote]Sorry, but I would eat my hat if your local farmers, or any farmers, grow maize without chemicals. Maize actually uses the most harmful pesticides/herbicides of any of the main European crops, to the ...[/quote]

As our land is in the middle of the farm and surrounded by the farmers fields we have discussed this with him. He says that he simply cannot afford chemicals. He has sprayed the fields with cow muck and if the year is bad for the maize he just cuts the maize earlier. He is in a co-op of small local farmers and they seem to share not only the equipment but also the silage etc.

We watch how he farms and apart from some nitrogen which he used last year on the grass fields after the really dry summer and then wet autumn, we have seen nothing used - this year it seems it is going to be just muck. We would not use his muck on our veggie beds if we thought he used chemicals. He also does not seem to buy in food for his cows - they have cover if they want it but are free to roam all year round and have access to grass and silage.

It seems very basic subsidence living here, they make all their own bread (10 kilos a week) cream, butter, fromage blanc etc, raise their own meat, poultry, the only thing we have seen bought in is lamb. One of the wives in the family even works in a Rocamadour cheese factory and at a family event guess what the cheese course was???? They could probably afford to live in a different way but choose not to. I have only once not seen our farmer smile and that was last spring when it just rained for months - apart from that I don't think I have ever met someone who seems happier with his lot.

[Jo53]

SB, I think this is basically true. I have seen and heard a lot about it on BBC TV and Radio 4 recently. As I understand it there are two problems. First there is the EU's Common Agricultural Policy, which in the past has seen European tax payers paying millions to store butter etc. that no one wants (having already subsidised the butter's production in the first place), and many other crazy excesses. Europeans pay significantly more for their food than they need to because of the CAP. Everyone except France (which is the largest single beneficiary) agrees that the system needs reform, and a major package of reforms a year or so ago had to be watered down because of French opposition. What would happen to the French countryside if the subsidies stopped? I don't know. Do we want all food to be produced ultra-efficiently, on an industrial scale, as it is in the UK? Arguably not.

The second problem is the effect of agricultural subsidies in Europe and the US on growers in the Third World. I saw a news report from a market in Africa where subsidised, over-produced European tomatoes were being flooded in and as a result local producers could not sell their goods. That really does seem immoral. Subsidised European sugar, lots of it grown in the UK, is keeping third world sugar growers out of the world market. The distortion of world agricultural markets by subsidies is a global problem, with the US being a big culprit also. But France is at the forefront of efforts by vested interests to block reforms.

The UK benefits relatively little from EU agricultural subsidies, so is eager for reform. It was our low receipts of subsidies that got us the rebate that we receive on our contributions to the EU. Now the other members want the rebate scrapped and an almighty row is brewing - due to come to a head in a few weeks' time I believe! Heigh-ho, what fun European politics is.

Well, that's how the BBC reports things, anyway.

Jo

[Richardbk]

The difference to understand is that France considers agriculture and food production intertwined with politics, social cohesion and national security and consequently there is a price to be paid for this. In Britain and elsewhere it is considered as simply another business where failure or survival are based solely on market principals.

BTW France must be one of the few countries where there is a minister responsible for social cohesion.

regs

Richard