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Chrissie

By Chrissie,
in French Language

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mint Newbie

mint

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French grammar is deffo not my strong point and I have only recently been paying any sort of attention to it.  But, for what it's worth, I'd say it like Pacha...qui était en train de sortir...

As far as possible, I avoid anything to do with "ing" in French! 

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NormanH Rising Star

NormanH

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[quote user="Chancer"]

Lets see if I have been paying attention and any of this has sunk in (it never did at school!).

"J'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école", is OK? - I saw my brother leaving the school.

And so is "J'ai vu mon frère en sortant de l'école", I saw my brother whilst I was leaving the school.

Would it be preferable to reverse the order "En sortant de l'école j'ai vu mon frère"

Or is that my English logic intervening?

Or should I get my coat? [:'(]

[/quote]

In my opinion you are completely right and you are showing your natural intelligence

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pachapapa Newbie

pachapapa

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[quote user="sweet 17"]

French grammar is deffo not my strong point and I have only recently been paying any sort of attention to it.  But, for what it's worth, I'd say it like Pacha...qui était en train de sortir...

As far as possible, I avoid anything to do with "ing" in French! 

[/quote]

Liliane of L'Oreal is in the news today, now lovey dovey with daughter but Woerth still, in the mire.

A dastardly "ing" word....... qui travaillait pour Clymène, société gérant la fortune Bettencourt. ...

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pachapapa Newbie

pachapapa

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[quote user="allanb"][quote user="bubbles"]What about "En sortant de l'école, j'ai vu mon frère"? That's pretty clear.[/quote]
No, that would mean that I saw him as I was leaving the school.  At least, I think it would.

If I saw him as he was leaving the school, I think I would say "j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école."

What I'm questioning is the second of NormanH's examples ("j'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école").  I'm not sure whether that's clear, or even correct.
[/quote]

j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école.....gives an idea of repetition not just the once.

J'ai vu le lapin noir sortant de la garenne.......J'ai vu le lapin noir sortir de la garenne.

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allanb Newbie

allanb

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[quote user="pachapapa"]j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école.....gives an idea of repetition not just the once.[/quote]

I don't think so.

Mon frère n'est plus dans l'école; je l'ai vu sortir.

No suggestion that he did it more than once, I would say.

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NormanH Rising Star

NormanH

Posted
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[quote user="allanb"][quote user="bubbles"]What about "En sortant de l'école, j'ai vu mon frère"? That's pretty clear.[/quote]

No, that would mean tha t I saw him as I was leaving the school.  At least, I think it would.

If I saw him as he was leaving the school, I think I would say "j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école."

What I'm questioning is the second of NormanH's examples ("j'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école").  I'm not sure whether that's clear, or even correct.

[/quote]

Shall we ask the French speakers?

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Christine Animal Newbie

Christine Animal

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[quote user="allanb"][quote user="pachapapa"]j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école.....gives an idea of repetition not just the once.[/quote]
I don't think so.

Mon frère n'est plus dans l'école; je l'ai vu sortir.

No suggestion that he did it more than once, I would say.


[/quote]

J'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école, I agree with Pachapapa, could mean more than once as in "I've seen him come out of there" (several times) and not "I saw him come out of there".

I also agree that "j'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école" is as in "en train de sortir" (in the process of doing so, or however you could explain that).  Could also be several times, not just once.

Mais où on va la ?!   [blink]

 

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Chancer Newbie

Chancer

Posted
Posted
[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Chancer"]

Lets see if I have been paying attention and any of this has sunk in (it never did at school!).

"J'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école", is OK? - I saw my brother leaving the school.

And so is "J'ai vu mon frère en sortant de l'école", I saw my brother whilst I was leaving the school.

Would it be preferable to reverse the order "En sortant de l'école j'ai vu mon frère"

Or is that my English logic intervening?

Or should I get my coat? [:'(]

[/quote]

In my opinion you are completely right and you are showing your natural intelligence
[/quote]

Flattery will get you everywhere you naughty man you![kiss]

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Chancer Newbie

Chancer

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Posted

"En train de " was a stop gap for me for a very long time before I had any understanding of French grammar, I had no clue of the existance of a thing called the present participle, its very hard to unlearn habits like that once they become automatic.

For describing an "ing" event in the past I still mostly use être in the imparfait followed by the participe présent of the verb

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pachapapa Newbie

pachapapa

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[quote user="Christine Animal"]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="pachapapa"]j'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école.....gives an idea of repetition not just the once.[/quote]
I don't think so.

Mon frère n'est plus dans l'école; je l'ai vu sortir.

No suggestion that he did it more than once, I would say.


[/quote]

J'ai vu mon frère sortir de l'école, I agree with Pachapapa, could mean more than once as in "I've seen him come out of there" (several times) and not "I saw him come out of there".

I also agree that "j'ai vu mon frère sortant de l'école" is as in "en train de sortir" (in the process of doing so, or however you could explain that).  Could also be several times, not just once.

Mais où on va la ?!   [blink]

 

[/quote]

Empiricaly rather interesting!     You have established the supposition that..... J'ai vu...can be translated into english as either...I have seen OR I saw....assuming that the past historic tense is a literary animal and therefore out of context in this contemplated oral exchange.....then it would possibly be argued that the french are compelled to use the present participle to express spontaneity and the infinitive to express continuity.

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pachapapa Newbie

pachapapa

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[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Well to me your number 2 would be "I saw my brother coming out of school".   [:D]

But you do seem to agree then that j'ai vu can be I have seen or I saw.

 

[/quote]

I agree with "coming".... in fact I was a little surprised that you had not accorded with Fowler in your quizzical post above.[;-)]

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mint Newbie

mint

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[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Well to me your number 2 would be "I saw my brother coming out of school".   [:D]

But you do seem to agree then that j'ai vu can be I have seen or I saw.

 

[/quote]

AFAIK, Christine, there is no distinction in French between Present Perfect (I have seen/j'ai vu) and Past Simple (j'ai vu) in English.  I have looked at this many times and I have never been able to make any distinction.

I just use what our French teacher would call "Say to me in good English!"[:D]  This, of course, makes me smile broadly as I can't imagine saying anything so foreign-sounding as "say to me..."![:D]

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