communaute universelle

[susie]

Hi ya we have been quoted the grand sum of 1200 euros to have our recent UK marriage changed to the communaute universelle by our notaire. We are both twice married with two sets of grown up children, perhaps this makes a difference, but this does sound extrodinarely high. Any ideas?

[Pickles]

IIRC, at least some of that amount is a tax whose value is based upon the value of the property/properties that you own in France.

Regards

Pickles

[Will]

As you have children from previous marriages, the CU might not be the best option anyway. It was usually recommended up to quite recently, and still is in many reference books, but under the latest succession and taxation laws the much cheaper tontine - and other no-cost solutions - can often prove just as good.

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="susie"]Hi ya we have been quoted the grand sum of 1200 euros to have our recent UK marriage changed to the communaute universelle by our notaire. We are both twice married with two sets of grown up children, perhaps this makes a difference, but this does sound extrodinarely high. Any ideas?[/quote]

Hi,

    You can change to "communauté universelle" - with "attribution integrale"( if you really want to, after understanding all the possible repercussions for the children) BUT ONLY IF ALL THE CHILDREN SIGN A NOTARISED "ACTE" RENOUNCING THEIR RIGHTS IN THEIR PARENT'S ESTATE.

     As to the excessive  quote, this may be due to the fact that your notaire is still applying the old rules where an inventory HAD to be drawn up, now, this is not necessarily so--see a couple more notaires (preferably english-fluent) and get quotes from them; these quotes should be  free.

[giantpanda]

Hi!

You would need to precise what contract you are considering:

Communauté Universelle with a clause " attribution intégrale "?

Or one limited to certain items?

Now in all case, the contract will only be valid, after each of your children has not opposed the matter ( admitting they are all of age ).

The Notaire has the obligation of letting them know by registered letter with answer, your project. They have  3 months to oppose. Basically the children out of precedent marriages are at a disadvantage in all cases, because on the death of a spouse, then the other spuse then owns all the items ( involved ) , as if he has been the owner right from the beginning - there is in fact no effective succession.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F936.xhtml

Normally such a contract will not be suggested to couples who are previously married, unless, a complex share of the estate is planed right from the start, which respect the rights of the reserved heirs.

Yours,

giantpanda

[susie]

Dear Giantpanda, thankyou for your reply. Our notaire did not explain that he would have to contact all four sons. My two are not the problem but my husbands  two live in America and we do not know where and he has had no contact with them for years. Hence, as in our English wills, they will not inherit from us, only my two sons will. The whole object of having our marriage regime changed is so that basically, we just will everything to each other. Are notaires fees a fixed rate or should I 'shop around' so to speak

[susie]

Hi Will, thanks for reply, as we already own a property I thought the tontine could only be used a time of puchase, but I will try and find some other ' no-cost solutions' and re-investigate the CU.

[giantpanda]

Hi!

It is not necessarily you who has to contact your children, although it would be recommended. It is an obligation for the Notaire to advise the children, and he can only finalise the "communauté universelle", after 3 months, having either an agreement or no reaction.

Now if you not can find them, and the Notaire can not find the 2 in USA, the whole contract is pointless.

Discuss the question with the Notaire.

Now there is something else, which you may not be aware.

As French residents, your GB will have only value for housing/flats outside France ( in most EC country, these are ruled by the law of the land )

However all other GB possessions will come into the French ruling.

Too many people who are around pension age, just consider the situation when one spouse deceases. You definitely, need to consider the situation at the time of decease of the second spouse, according to if you know where the second one would live after the death of the other.

Especially in your situation, not organising the succession because of the French indivision ruling ( If the inheritance is not divided, i.e everybody has to agree to the split) you do your heirs no favor, because if any one opposes it can means years, if no one goes to court to force a solution.

The Notaires' fees ( you have to know that he charges you also for taxes and registrations required , he pays for you ) are dependant what they do for you - there are tarifs they have to respect.

Yours,

giantpanda

[Will]

Susie, yes, you are correct. When purchasing, it is necessary to specify the inheritance regime, e.g. en tontine, and it is near-impossible to change afterwards. It wasn't clear that this was not part of a house purchase because that's when questions about this normally arise. Why do you need to change the regime? If for inheritance, as you suggest, the CU may be the best solution (not knowing all the circumstances) but it may be just a way of feathering this particular notaire's nest, so to speak. Normally it would not do what you appear to want, and just ensure one set of children inherit - which children inherit depends, in a case lke yours, on which spouse dies first. Do check with another lawyer. In a case like yours the regime change can be complex, and insecure, as it depends on the agreement of all the children (even if they formally agree at the time they can still contest it afterwards), also if done after purchase it can be very expensive.

The CU is not a universal solution, quite a lot of French people choose, or change to, separation de biens, i.e. the British regime, as it suits their purposes better.

 

[bonoeuf]

Hello all, my first post. I will introduce myself when I find the appropriate place.

I have just bought a plot of land in dept 19 and had the notaire wrote up a CU at the time of purchase. I took advice from an Anglo French law firm I found out about on this forum. They are based in Newcastle upon Tyne, might be worth a call. Their web address is http://www.anglofrenchlaw.co.uk/index.htm the joint owner is Marcel and he was very helpful.

Marty

[Complikate]

As I understand it, it is incorrect that your notaire must contact your children, unless you have previously made a change to your marriage regime in the past (even a partial one), which is probably why he did not mention it. You are entitled to one change under The Hague convention. The rules of this convention have been incorporated into the French civil code.

The fact that you can do it does not mean you should, as complications may arise later. If you use the Hague Convention, it is then on death that the children must be contacted. This is not a good scenario, since if the children are found; they will have a juicy cheque or property dangled under their nose by the notaire. If the children are not found, it means waiting while the search goes on for anything to happen with the estate, causing anxiety at an already difficult time.

A tontine clause is an option, however, if you have already purchased the property, this becomes an expensive option, as it is generally inserted (at no cost) in the purchase contract. Altering your contract after the purchase requires a notarial act and comes at a cost.

There are many complex ways of getting around the property problem, but clearly your notaire is not discussing them with you. If you own the property 50/50, then €1,200 is very expensive for a marriage regime change. You should expect to pay no more than €600. If you do not own the property 50/50 then a recalibration of ownership is required before the marriage regime can be put in place and this increases the cost. Then €1,200 would be very reasonable. My suggestion is that if you do own the property 50/50 then you find another notaire since this one is not advising you properly and he is overcharging you for it.

Kate

[parsnips]

Hi Complikate,

      I'm afraid I must disagree with your comments on the Hague Convention. As I understand it you can use the convention to opt to subject your marriage regime to french law,  but you then opt for the regime you wish to adopt--the rules for which are as laid down in french law. Prior to 01/01/2007, the children of a previous relationship did not have to be informed of the CU until the succession, but this changed when the inheritance laws were reformed as from that date.

     The present situation is preferable as any problems can be dealt with at the time of adopting the regime, so avoiding unpleasant surprises when trying to cope with bereavement. 

[Complikate]

Hi Parsnips,

If you're right I will bow to your superior knowledge. If you have any links or articles where you got this information I would be very grateful indeed. I have tried to look this up and I can only find alterations on that date that refer to French law. The Hague Convention is international law and it is article 6 of this convention that gives the right to change the regime. This has been incorporated into the civil code under article 1526 and on looking at the law, it has not been altered.

Kate

[parsnips]

[quote user="Complikate"]Hi Parsnips,

If you're right I will bow to your superior knowledge. If you have any links or articles where you got this information I would be very grateful indeed. I have tried to look this up and I can only find alterations on that date that refer to French law. The Hague Convention is international law and it is article 6 of this convention that gives the right to change the regime. This has been incorporated into the civil code under article 1526 and on looking at the law, it has not been altered.

Kate[/quote]

Hi,

 The uncertainty arises ,as I see it, because there is a mixture of two measures here, the hague convention which permits a change from one country's marriage law to another's, and french marriage law which , contrary to, say, the UK ,provides for a number of different regimes, and adaptations thereof.  Once you have opted to accept french marriage law , then you are bound by the regulations relating to the particular regime within that law which you choose. In the case of CU these regulations changed 01/01/2007. As I say, this is my interpretation, but in two recent cases where  I assisted people changing to CU the (two different) notaires took the same view; that is not definitive proof as notaires are frequently in error when dealing with what are to them slightly exotic matters.

[Complikate]

Thank you Parsnips,

It is indeed very interesting and it obviously depends whom you speak to, since I have not yet come across a notaire who has held this view; however I do understand it... "C’est logique!" 

I have often said to people that they can shop around for the answer they want, within reason. I met a couple who had affected a partial marriage regime whilst not resident and they wanted to extend it to a full marriage regime, as they were moving to France.

They were told that they had made one change under the Hague convention and could not do another, so their children would be informed under French law. However, they did not want their children informed of their marriage regime change and were advised, by their notaire, to change their regime back to séparation des biens, leave it six months and then change it to a full CU, so it could be done under the Hague Convention, thus no child contact.

The idea was that because the change was being made from a UK regime to a French one, they could use the Hague Convention again and they considered that child contact was not required if using the Hague Convention. A view often taken is that the UK marriage regime of separation is wrong, since, in the UK we are used to automatic accrual. Only CU gives us this, so it should be that the default regime should be CU and not separation of goods.

 

Kate

 

[annie]

I have just joined this forum and having read the various postings, I would like to stress how important it is to consider all your options before going for a particular 'solution'.  And please, please, when you take legal advice (including from the Notaire), make sure you receive the advice in writing so that when the matter arises again in the future, you know for sure why you made a particular choice.  I have met too many people who could not remember or understand what they had been advised to do and why...

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