New Build Regulations

[lostinfens]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post this query-so let me know if you can.

Are there any building controls in France in any way comparable to those in UK, or is it just a case of - if you're prepared to live in it, then build it as you like?

I'm aware that there are some planning regulations, are these as lax as I'm led to believe?

I've recently been involved in a new build in France & was concerned over the cavalier attitude adopted by the English plot owner/builder. After 2 weeks in which we built the shell of a bungalow, I decided that I couldn't in all conscience continue & left them to it.

I say builder in the loosest of terms, he is in fact a Lorry Driver with delusions of grandeur.  What seriously worries me is that he plans to develop an adjoining plot and rent or sell it on. Is this acceptable under French Building laws?

Please let me know if this is the wrong place to post this

[P-D de Rouffignac]

There are indeed very strict regulations concerning both new-builds and renovations in France. In the case of new-builds, planning permission must be applied for and received before work starts (as for most renovations). Of primary concern is the habitable area of the proposed house in relation to the size of the plot, siting and proximity to boundaries/neighbouring properties, height, slope of roof, materials used, wall finishes, colour of tiles, access, position of windows etc etc. Buildings over 170m² require the services of an architect.

Authorities concerned include the local mairie, the DDE, possibly Batiments de France (in cases where the site is near a historic monument), environmental agencies etc etc. plus local objectors.  

The regulations are anything but lax and must be strictly adhered to. A quick guide might be check the obligatory signboard that should be displayed at the site, which should detail the planning references etc, followed by a visit to the mairie.

Cordially, P-D de R.

[Chancer]

I agree with you P-D de R that a permis de construire or a declaration prelable will be refused if the strict regulations are not met but that is as far as it goes.

Beyond that there is no control that the normes are adhered to, the architect is responsible for specifying them but there is no building control, granted you (hopefully) have the paperasse of decennelle assurances to keep the avocats and experts in work for many years to come.

And yes if the building is seen to be in contravention of size, siting, finish, proximity etc as you mentioned it will probably be followed up.

I think the wise words of my ex Maire when I naively asked him about building regs and control sums up the situation well, he said and I quote "you can build your house out of cornflake packets for all that I or anyone will care as long as it corresponds to the size shown on the plans"

It seems that the builders of many of the baracks in my village have taken him at his word!

[lostinfens]

Thx for that.

The job I was on corresponded somewhat to the "artists impression" as far as I could see but didn't sit as well on the hillside as it should have.  What is a paperasse etc?

The construction was of "poteau ?" blocks if that makes sense, but few lintols were used and a form of U blocks used instead with about 6" sq of reinforced concrete poured inside.

These seem an admirable way to form a ring beam, but a poor lintol particularly over an 8' garage opening. Also the wall blocks have specific corner blocks with a large void which locate to accept further reinf crete vertically, which I believe is intended to be attached to the ring beam forming a fairly stout framework. Of course that didn't happen on this job :).

But I think you have answered my question regarding regs- but what happens if you sell on a bodge of this nature?

[gosub]

[quote user="lostinfens"]Thx for that.

The job I was on corresponded somewhat to the "artists impression" as far as I could see but didn't sit as well on the hillside as it should have.  What is a paperasse etc?

The construction was of "poteau ?" blocks if that makes sense, but few lintols were used and a form of U blocks used instead with about 6" sq of reinforced concrete poured inside.

These seem an admirable way to form a ring beam, but a poor lintol particularly over an 8' garage opening. Also the wall blocks have specific corner blocks with a large void which locate to accept further reinf crete vertically, which I believe is intended to be attached to the ring beam forming a fairly stout framework. Of course that didn't happen on this job :).

But I think you have answered my question regarding regs- but what happens if you sell on a bodge of this nature?

[/quote]

If they want to sell within ten years, they will be asked for proof of what remains of the 10 year warranty, if they can't produce that, I think that the price would be reduced by a large amount.

[lostinfens]

Is there any requirement then to use local or registered builders in France, (I've seen this mentioned on another forum). Or is it acceptable to import UK tradesmen and go to it regardless?

[Chancer]

Lostinfens

Paperasse =  paperchase/tons of unecessary paperwork is the best way that I can translate it.

Sorry for using the French term but they creep into my writing all the time normally the words that I have learnt and understood in French but have never needed to translate to English, they just form part of my general vocabulary and I dont realise that I am using them.

Asides from writing on this forum I dont get to speak English, the person I speak with on the phone most in the UK lived in France for 20 years and is currently having a house built, our conversations are usually about France and/or one of our chantiers (done it again! - builds) the conversation is peppered with French terms, whenever we repeat something that was said it is usually in French so as to fully understand and sometimes we just unknowingly continue in French.

I agree with you reagrding the ring beams, known as chainage, I have used them over windows and continue them round at that level to make a ring beam or I cast in place a lintel for the larger openings that you refer to. A 2.4 meter opening does seem a lot considering the most of the volume of the block does not form a structural part of the beam just shuttering.

Sadly when I built the flat that I live in I didnt know of the existence of the corner blocks (chainage verticale) and would have preffered to have the stout framework that you refer to. Mine is only single storey so not much of an issue but I frequently see them missed out of two and even  3 storey parpaing builds, I guess if they are not there or the macon cant be bothered to look for them the job just continues without them and it is very difficult to see afterwards whether they have ben used and impossible to see if the reinforcing rods have been joined together in the prescribed fashion.

[La Guerriere]

In our part of Manche you seem to be able to build anything new as long as it comes out of the Big Bumper Fun Book of Standard Villas and is painted magnolia

[lostinfens]

I am truly astonished at the apparent lack of regulation in France, do they experience an amount of building catastrophes or are they just lucky?

[La Guerriere]

I think it is more to do with there being very large inherent safety factors in domestic building, particularly with the standard concrete block (parpaing) type of construction, and standard sizes of roofing timbers etc. I also suspect that the cast in-situ lintels are a lot stronger than they need to be.

[lostinfens]

I understand what you mean, but in France as over here the tools are only as good as the man using them.

The lintols do seem a fair idea, but materials used wrongly -as I saw them being used-they are sub standard. My point is that there seems to be no regular checks on standards.

In much the same way, materials used over here are man enough for most jobs if used properly. Add to that the regular and often annoying input of building control and there is less room for unsafe practices .

[Chancer]

[quote user="lostinfens"]I am truly astonished at the apparent lack of regulation in France, do they experience an amount of building catastrophes or are they just lucky?
[/quote]

If you watch French TV the actualité programs are choc full of enquête exclusive on building problems, the insurers are perhaps the worst culprit even not taking up the case of a woman who had paid cotisations for protection juridique for over 17 years and who had problems as they considered that the artisan should have had dommages ouvrages cover despite the fact that he only tiled her bathroom.

The program thought that they were on to a winner when they doorstepped him, no SIRET, last proffessional cotisations in 1988 and the address on the facture was a driving school, turned out that the guy had found the building game tto tough and started a driving school and had quite legitamately had "petit travaux de batiment" added to his business registration.

27000 procedures started every year against builders of which only 8000 are settled, an avocat spoke of his case load and said that the quickest result for an uncontested case is around 3 years most others are settled by 10 years and his record, which he was at great pains to say was terrible for the client and he was not at all proud was 20 years and still going.

There is no-one responsible for controlling artisans, they spoke to the head of (I dont know who but the government department supposedly responsible) and he said would you really like there to be a fonctionaire on every site checking things when we are under pressure to reduce our numbers?

Then they went to Qualibat, a private (subscription) company supposedly vetting and accepting only qualified and reliable companys/tradesman, it turned out that each dossier was dealt with in less than 1/2 hour by looking at paperwork and photos without any site visit, later under pressure when showed a leaked internal document they reluctantly admitted that they no longer even required a photo of work (which could easily have been someone elses anyway) before accepting a company and their membership fees.

I have seen loads and loads of people featured that have been living in rented accomadation for 3,4 or 5 years whilst paying the mortagage on the near finished house that the builder wont now touch until the courts order him to and the legal fees.

I saw one that had dragged on for several years, the people had paid the builder the majority of the money and had serious and genuine snagging problems that he refused to attend to, they could not move in because of some paperwork issue, perhaps Consuel documentation, I cannot remember.

They too were forced to rent whilst makig repayments on the money they had borrowed and paid the builder, I forget the figures but the build was before the boom in house prices, the tribunal ruled in their favour and ordered the builder to give them back their money which he was delighted to do. He then swiftly dealt with the snagging and sold the house on at twice what he had been ordered to repay.

[lostinfens]

Errrmmm-- lost me on a few of you terminologicueals (just made that up) in 1st 2 paragraphs, but got the gist of it.

Basically the French regulation of buildings is a pile of merde.

[La Guerriere]

I wouldn't say it was a pile of poo. Building control for domestic buildings just doesn't exist.

[Chancer]

[quote user="lostinfens"]Errrmmm-- lost me on a few of you terminologicueals (just made that up) in 1st 2 paragraphs, but got the gist of it.
Basically the French regulation of buildings is a pile of merde.
[/quote]

Sorry for again using terms as I think them, basically loads of exposé programs on French Tv with no shortage of juicy subject matter in the building trade.

You were close above but I would say that

French building regs (normes) are very good.

You cannot call the French regulation of building poo or anything really because it does not exist [:)]

Some of us Chancers actually quite like the situation but there is no way that I could be persuaded to buy a modern built house in France.

Ok at the right price and after giving it a good checkover I would, preferably one without any decenelle insurance, - you cant be dissapointed by what you dont have.

I should really say I would not pay over my money to a building company for a clé en main (turnkey) house.

[suein56]

[quote user="Chancer"]

French building regs (normes) are very good.

You cannot call the French regulation of building poo or anything really because it does not exist [:)][/quote]

Which is why French friends who have had houses built for their retirement - on land they have bought previously monitor the building process continually ie they are on the building site every day they can possibly manage, or at least, every 2/3 days to make sure that everything is as they want. And, if it isn't progressing exactly as they want, then they complain* and make a nuisance of themselves until it is. 

*râler = complain, moan

Sue

[lostinfens]

The downside to monitoring a process of which you may be unfamiliar with is fairly obvious, hence the need for regulated standards. I love working for people who "know a bit"--not!

The whole point of any profession or trade is long term knowledge and that small voice inside which pricks the conscience.

Since my brush with French building, I am more inclined to the uk methods & yet to be persuaded otherwise. On a footnote, I did spend over 3 years in Germany & Holland & was impressed by the quality of work there.