Health & safety provisions in France??

[lostinfens]

Can anyone help me find out if there is anywhere to find a printable version of health & safety regs particularly pertaining to building work in France?

Or does anyone have any experience in the minimum standards required, are they comparable with UK or not?

I mean as regards employment & facilities required etc.

Thx all

[lostinfens]

No replies so far ---

What I am aiming to find out is, is there a basic H&S requirement on building sites in France ie first aid toilet facility & does this extend to high vis and hard tops as in UK.

Or do the French take a more pragmatic approach "caveat actor" and all that?

[woolybanana]

From what I have seen, which is private chantier work, there aint no observation even if there are regulations!

[lostinfens]

There must be some basic standard to which even les cowboys must adhere to though - isn't there?

[Gardengirl]

Can't help, sorry. But if our experience with the large nationally known company which built our apartment block is anything to go by, then any regs are disregarded . We bought off plan and visited the site when they were busy building the ground floor to choose the position we fancied. We both were given hard hats, but nobody else had hats on the whole site, apart from the foreman on that one visit. Men swarmed everywhere throughout the 2 years the construction went on, without any hats etc. We visited fairly regularly, often just to see from outside how things were progressing (very slowly was the answer), so it wasn't as if we happened along on a bad hat day! On later visits to check up on progress even we weren't given hats, not even  on the acceptance visit with the project manager from head ofice. Nor was the apartment accepted for a long time, but that's another tale!

GG 

[Patf]

H&S is closely related to insurance and suing - eg in the UK where people sue at the drop of a hat (!) H&S legislation is over the top.

Here you expect workmen and visitors to the site to have their own insurance should an accident happen. Always check on this. It affects paying for any medical treatment too.

The suing culture hasn't reached France yet but evidently it's on its way.

[Ladoix]

I would imagine most H & S regs are European legislation now so if you stick to the UK ones you wont go far wrong.

With regards to employment, French legislation is much tougher than English legislation interms of conges, rights etc.

For a definitive answer, I would try the Chambre des Metiers or look at http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr or http://www.service-public.fr

[lostinfens]

I would've thought that H&S was relatively standard across the board, but it does seem that the French have a more easy going attitude.

I have to say that I'm not at all a fan of the modern risk obsessiveness  ( Ireally hate hard hats) but do expect a basic degree of facilities on site.

The thing is, a guy I'm in the process of suing for work done over there has made the startling claim that the job was up to French H&S standards.

It's nonsense of course, he's just attempting to muddy things with his usual bull***t & I would like to expose this in court-hence the thread.

 Tried the Chambre de Metiers -couldnt get to grips with it though.

Thanks to all contributors -

[Chancer]

Without knowing the full details I may be incorrect but unless you were sub-contracted by the guy who owes you money, i.e. he was the main contractor not the client then it is you that would have been responsible for safety on the chantier, I doubt that you and your mate could have thrown up a plan pied in two weeks for €1500 if you had to take on the costs of H&S compliance [;-)]

Forgive me if I have misquoted your other post, I am writing from memory.

I doubt that any discussion over H&S will have any bearing on your claim, better to stick to the salient points.

H&S legislation does exist but it is never checked except for on the largest of jobs and then it is usually instigated by the contractor trying to keep down his insurance cotisations, the authorities only get involved after the event when someone is killed or seriously injured.

Its a pity that RA is no longer with us, I am sure he would have something to say on the subject.

[lostinfens]

We did indeed get a bungalow to wall plate within 2 weeks, using "poteau"? This included a beam & block floor (imported from UK) & all the requisite faffing .

Did I mention that it was August when the weather was in the high 30s?. I'm not quite sure what a planned pied (a terre praps) is but I'm sorry that you doubt me, I do have video proof of the job.

It really wasn't that difficult, but I thought the design was a seriously flawed mix of French & UK materials. We arrived Mon 10th, started in earnest on Tues & I worked til Thur 20th. Another couple of days & the trusses (also brought from UK) wouldve been up.

Ironically I did it at "mates rates" and for the crack - free digs beer & food. Sadly the guy turned into a nobhead wouldnt supply scaffolding for the roof & that was that.

As to who employed whom-I think that we were employed by him & he now maitains that h&e was to French standards, which apparently involves the use of "Sky Hooks" when roofing, and said as much in his defence to my claim to the court. Frankly I'm not convinced & intend to make him explain this when the case is heard.

This is the reason why I'm intersted in French h&s, he has made a wholly false claim in a plethora of false claims and each one which I can discredit with proof will obviously expose him for the liar that he is.

If you still don't beleive me Chancer I'll post some vid on U Tube, but may have to wait until the legal stuff is over.

 

[Patf]

A maison plain-pied or plein-pied is a detached single storey house, or bungalow.

[Sunday Driver]

The responsibilities for health and safety at work are set out in the Code de Travail which places the onus on an employer to "take the necessary measures to ensure safety and protect the physical and mental health of his employees".  It also requires the employee to "care for his own safety and for that of others affected by his acts or omissions at work".

Looking back on your previous threads, this project would appear to involve an individual (whom you describe as a lorry driver/builder) who bought a plot of land with the intention of building a property on it. It seems he arranged for you and a friend to come across from the UK and spend a couple of weeks working on the site for what you term as 'mates rates', digs and beer.  You say you think you were employed by him, but in the absence of any mention of having the required legal employment contract, then you are likely to be regarded as a labour sub contractor and therefore responsible for your own health and safety.  Either way, you would be expected to ensure that the necessary safety equipment was in place before undertaking any roofing work.

Having said all that, you seem to be pursuing him for non-payment of your 'mates rates', so unless he has suffered material loss or damage through non-compliance with health and safety regulations on your part, then it's not clear why he is making these counterclaims against you.

 

 

[Chancer]

Lostinfens.

I wasnt for a moment doubting what you did in two weeks for €1500, I was writing from memory so may have been innacurate, what I meant was that if you had to comply with H&S legislation UK stylie you would not have got much real work done during that time, perhaps installed a portaloo, some barriers de chantier and written a method statement [6] and the €1500 would easily have been swallowed up by the cost of protection equipment.

Knowing the cost of scaffolding/hire in France I can see why your mate/client baulked at it, I ended up making my own wooden cantilever scaffold the materials coming to about €300 and are now gradually being used elsewhere in the build.

One thing that confuses me is who is taking whom to court and for what reasons? If you have genuinely been bumped and the guy is making false claims to justify not paying then the thought of being reported for employing you on the black would normally be enough to unblock the money.  http://have-it.com/denonciation/pages/astuces/travail_au_noir.html

I still cant see how H&S comes into the picture or whether you were doing this job as a favor for a mate or working for a customer, in either case it would appear that you may have been the main contractor hence responsible for your own H&S, if you were working on a day rate basis only and not supplying materials perhaps the situation would be different but I think only if you were labouring under the direction of the owner i.e. you relying on him for instruction and not having your own skills and experience.

[BJSLIV]

Would a French court be prepared to  enforce  a contract that in itself probably breeches numerous  regulations?

Registrations, 35 hour week  etc etc spring to mind.

 

[lostinfens]

Interesting stuff! - The reason why h&s came up was as follows:- When filling in a small claims form (which can be done online now) there is a requirement to give a brief description of the dispute and its origins etc. In this case the lack of scaffolding was the point of contention which led to my leaving the job, I duly mentioned this to support my claim, also noting on advice that there was a lack of health & safety provisions in general. This is in UK is unnaceptable whether you are a sub contractor or empolyee and as the contract as it were was made in UK it merits mention, but is only as I mentioned a part of the whole dispute.

In his defence, the guy that I'm suing claims that the site was up to scratch in French h&s terms, which is a pile of steaming bovine by product, as is the rest of his defence.

Is all that clear now?? Frankly I don't give a flying flip about the French safety attitude, I just wanted a downloadable overview of their h&s requirements if there is one.

I hope this clears the h&s question up for you Chancer & Sunday Driver.

Also, I use the term "mates rates" as a general reference to  favourable rates of pay which are below the norm and often applied to "mates" but not exclusively.

Accomodation et al was part of the agreement, the free beer was a light hearted reference which I now regret as I can see that this is one of those humour free europegoodukbad  zones

You've lost me a little in your last paragraph Chancer, of course we were not contractors, & seeing that we were not on the cards, then lets assume that we were sub contractors.

[cooperlola]

I think the guy's talking cr*p too, lif.  When I had my - plein pied -house re-roofed, the (French) company in question insisted that I shell out for scaffolding as an essential to the h&s of their employees. 

There's loads of stuff at this site, but this is what came up when I put scaffolding in the search box:

http://www.travailler-mieux.gouv.fr/Facadier-enduiseur.html

As to the reaction of posters on here - sorry, but it's not a case of ukbadeurope good, at all.  It's simply that those who live here have to pay daft amounts of money to be insured/registered/in the health and social security system etc etc in France and there is therefore some (understandable, I reckon) resentment towards those who work over here and who ignore the requirement to have French insurance.  I think you were probably well advised to do what you did and give up working for this oik.  If you'd had an accident, I doubt if you'd have been covered and might have ended up with a huge medical bill.  I'd thank your lucky stars you followed your instincts and got out while the going was good, if I were you.

[Patf]

Here is some recent legislation (hoping you can read french):

http://www.lexinter.net/Legislation5/securite.htm

[Chancer]

No resentment on my part but ignorant confusion, I  see things more clearly now, you are suing him in the UK small claims court for work carried out in France and unpaid.

I am guessing here as details are stll sparse that his defence, or part of it is that you walked off the job, you in turn are saying that you did so because of a lack of H&S or am I way off base?

Good luck to you with getting justice in the UK for work carried out in France, I stand by my comments (whichever side of the channel you fight) to stick to the basics of the case, work not paid for, and not get bogged down with other issues.

My comments regarding main contracor status are not really relevant as you are pursuing this in the UK but were made in the context of who is liable for H&S in France, a homeowner contracting a builder to do the sort of works that you describe is the customer and not responsible, the competent person doing the work is responsible and should have included for this in his devi, if he were in turn to employ labourers on a dayrate basis he would be responsible for the scaffolding for them to work in safety, not the householder.

Good luck to you, you may create an intersting precedent, where does the customer reside, UK or France?

 

[lostinfens]

Many thanks all, there's much there to look into & consider. I was only joking about the newspeak terminology, (eurogood etc). I beleive that as both parties reside in UK & there is ample reference in  his defence to agreements made in UK, then there is litle doubt that a lawsuit over here is practical.

As you mention Chancer a major part of his defence is that I left the job invoking an imaginary refund clause :) . The guy is a pathological liar, his defence is pure fiction and I expect to win the case given a fair hearing. However I am a fairly methodical person and approach most problems practically, prefering to leave as little to chance as possible- so I ended up posting here.

Shame I wasn't as meticulous in my choice of jobs though innit ?

Cheers all