Andyphilpott Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I have used the IGN 1:25000 maps for hiking in Provence for some years and although not up to Ordnance Survey standards they are fine for my purposes. I have recently bought a GPS unit and find that IGN now also do digital maps - Carto 3 - which are simply digitised images of their paper maps. This does create one surprising result in that they have simply produced digital images of each of their paper maps and joined them together. Since the maps are produced at different times there is a distinct difference in shading where one map adjoins another in the digital version, but that does not detract from their usefulness.When you place your mouse pointer on a place on the map it shows up the exact latitude and longitude (or alternatively the IGN grid reference - UTM WGS84) and you can create tracks using waypoints placed where you want so you can plan routes at home and download them into the GPS Unit ready for a trip. This is very similar to the process used with UK digital maps based on Ordnance Survey. You can also print out a route map, although I have not tried that yet.Loading the software and transferring the maps to your hard drive is not exactly straightforward but I have now got to grips with that following an e mail to IGN who responded quickly to help.I have often found that we can walk for hours without seeing another soul so having the certainty of knowing exactly where you are is a real benefit - so long as the batteries hold out! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizzer Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 What make and model of GPS do you have Andy? I have found some are much easier to load and use than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I noticed the same problem but although not 100% accurate it's not bad for the price. I use mine with an Ipaq and bluetooth GPS unit. Nice thing about the Ipaq is that I can have CoPilot and Carto running on the same machine so when I get on to tarmac I can just switch to CoPilot to take me home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 I have a Garmin E Trex Vista and it is fine for my purposes. This weekend I have a trainer coming down from the Lakes to teach me and a group of other walking friends how to get the best out of them. He has not seen the IGN maps yet so he is looking forward to seeing them. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Hi Andy,Where are these digital maps available from and what cost are they. I too have the the Vista and at the moment I use the Garmin MapSource, good in the car, but not really for walking...John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 John, they are made by BAYO, there website is www.bayo.com. their 37.90€ per map including software interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysfloss Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 try www.ign.fr as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted February 28, 2005 Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 Yes, BAYO are the people and you can get to them via the ign.fr web site.I took a course on GPS navigation at the weekend which was very helpful. For those in the UK who are interested get in touch with [email protected]who runs these courses. Not sure if there is anything similar in France. The course confirmed just how easy it is to use the UK O/S derived digital maps and although the IGN ones are nowhere near as good, it is still quite possible to do a lot with them, including working out routes etc on your PC before you make a trip. Using the Garmin it is very easy to follow a route and, so long as you create a waypoint at the start of the walk you can always find your way back to it by simply following the directions on screen - so long as the batteries hold out!I also found out that you can use rechargeable batteries in these units - it does not say that in the manuals but the experts say it is no problem although rechargeables do not last as long as single use batteries. You also need to you use high quality rechargeables.I am looking forward to trying it out when I next get back to the Var - maybe one of the Verdon Gorge walks before it gets too hot to do them.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Hi Andy, if you want to get rechargables have a look at www.7dayshop.com I got 2400ma NMH batteries from them at a VERY good price. They also do a deal, or 2, where you buy 8 X 2000ma batteries and a charger for £11.49! not bad in my book...Have a look on page 3 of your Garmin manual under installing batteries, it tells you that you can use rechargables, but, as you say, not how to change to them. You have to change the type in the Main Menu, Setup, System and 'click' down to battery and click on it. The reason that you have to change is that the different types of battery have different characteristics.John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted February 28, 2005 Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 Thanks for that info - very helpful indeed. I have some good rechargeables with my camera so I will try those out first and then buy those you suggest if it works OK.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Help! I'm interested in these GPS things as, like you Andy, we go for long walks without seeing a soul, and every now and then get ever so slightly lost. BUT I know nothing at all about them. Can anyone suggest a website that would explain things in terms that would be understandable to someone whose technological development stopped with the bicycle? How much would I have to pay for a system that would be useful for walking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Hi Bixy,Have a look at this site www.globalpositioningsystems.co.uk . They are the people I bought my GPS from and they are very helpful with a lot of gen on the site. I bought the Garmin Etrex Vista, not the Vista C that wasn't out then. They were also the cheapest place that I could find... They also have what they call a 'live buying chat line' to help to find the best for you.I don't get lost anymore, unless I forget to take the thing with me!John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 I looked at the globalpositioning.... site and it is good. However nothing beats taking a course. On the one I arranged last weekend half of those attending did not yet have a GPS and it was invaluable for them as they could try out several different models to see which suited them best. Others who did have a gps wish they had waited until after the course when they found what was available! It also helped having practical sessions (albeit in arctic conditions) as I tend to learn more from that than from reading a manual.Also gpstraining sell a training DVD (you can get it elsewhere too) which provides a good grounding on the whole subject of navigation from the basics upward and I found that worthwhile. I passed it round beforehand to those who were on the course so that they were up to speed with the basics as we crammed 2 days course into one, but we were all familiar with map and compass navigation anyway. The most interesting part is the availability of digital maps from Memory Map and IGN which opens up an entirely new dimension in terms of the ease with which you can organise walks in the comfort of your home. Inputting into most GPS units by hand is a real drag - basis is that of doing text messages which is a pain when you have big fingers! On the PC it is so simple and quick I still cannot really believe it. Unlike working out the grid reference on a paper map and then entering the grid reference manually, you simply place your cursor on the way point (which is simply a place where you want to go) and click on it and it automatically reads off the grid reference so it is impossible to enter the wrong data by mis-keying. Just set up a string of waypoints and you have a route. Want to find your way back to the car when you decide to give up the hike? Just set the GPS to find the first way point and follow the arrows. It is not all straightforward of course. A gps is not infallible and relies entirely on there being unfettered access to at least 4 satellites (3 if you do not need altitude measured). Cloudy skies are no problem but if you are walking in woods for instance it can block out the direct 'line of sight' needed to operate. It picks it up (usually) when you emerge into the open. You are also dependent on batteries. In the not too distant future I am sure we will see rechargeable gps units - like a mobile phone - with much better battery life. To the extent that technology is changing fast, whatever unit you buy will be out of date soon, but if it does what you want it to do that does not really matter (not to me anyway).In terms of costs, I believe my unit was around £300 but my memory may be a bit out. Certainly the expectations are that prices will come down and the level of facilities will go up as more and more people use gps. It is already big in the USA - garmin is now in the NASDAQ top 250 or something like that and they have 80% of the market. The Car market has seen a huge increase in gps use and the telecommunications sector is starting to embrace it so that soon you will have a combined phone and gps (and I will be able to track where my staff are!). You need to be fairly focused on what you want to use it for though. The Palm Top PC's are very good and clear but are not at all as robust as the units made specifically for the great outdoors. I have lost count of the times I have dropped my Vista and it bounces back each time. Not sure that would happen with my Palm Top.As a starting point for you I would certainly look at the web site recommended by John above, but also look at http://www.gpstraining.co.uk/ it is free and you can sign up for their newsletter which will keep you up to date. Nice people to do business with too. I believe that they can get very good deals on units although have not tested that. If you are in the UK, I think they are at the Outdoor Leisure (or something like that) Exhibition at the NEC this month so you can check them out there. I expect there will be something about that in their newsletter.Hope this helps you - in the final analysis, you just need to try out the units and then practice. They are not foolproof so don't chuck out the compass yet.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 GPS and street maps are available for mobile phones with 'bluetooth' from ALK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Thanks very much for your helpful replies. I've had a look at both sites suggested. I may well go on one of the gps training courses, if I decide to go ahead with this. The courses are not too far from where I live.I've also looked at the IGN site. Presumably I would have to buy the CD for the area I intended to walk in and load it into the GPS receiver. Does that mean that a paper map would no longer be needed?I've read somewhere that these receivers don't work very well amongst trees - is this the case with the model you mention - the Vista? Could you tell me what a GOTO facility is?Sorry about all these questions but my learning curve is so steep it's practically vertical!Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 I do need to correct one misapprehension here - generally speaking with the hiking type of GPS you would not download a map itself - at present the file size would be too large and in any event not very useful as you could only see a small part of the map on the screen of the unit. It will show you major roads and villages etc. On the Palm Top you have a bigger screen so you could get more on that but it is usually at the level of main roads and not hiking tracks.For this reason a paper map to take with you is essential. However you can print off a section of the map from the digital map so you can take only the part you are walking on with you if you choose. Personally I would do this, possibly laminated, but would always take the paper map as well. What happens if your batteries run flat or you break the gps - you are well and truly stuffed!What you load from the map is the waypoints - or co-ordinates of the spot you are walking too.All gps have trouble when there is no direct line of sight to the satellites. Some are more powerful than others but all are fallible. It does not actually matter though. You are not going to walk with your nose glued to the screen and indeed many walkers will turn the gps off once they are heading in the right direction, using landmarks or track signs as guidance, only turning it on when they need additional guidance. This saves on batteries. Leaving it on is however useful if you want to see on your digital map exactly where you have been - not necessarily the same as where you planned to go! This is because as long as it is on it leaves a trail (sometimes referred to as a breadcrumb trail!) which you can down load from the gps to your digital mao and then compare the actuality with the plan.Keep the questions coming - it makes me think a bit and after all the only daft question is the one you did not ask.If you book the course ask for Peter Judd and mention my name.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Andy, are there any courses in the Carcassonne area? It's a long way to the Lakes, much as I love them...I always carry a spare set of batteries and if you really want to go OTT then 7dayshop do a carry case for 8 'AA' batteries so you don't finish up with a NMH battery hand warmer! I have actually had 2 NiCad batteries short in my pocket and it don't half focus your attention quickly !When I use the unit in my car I have a re-radiating ariel and it almost cuts out the problems with tree cover. We used it all the time when we were looking for where we wanted to settle here and each evening we dumped the track from the day onto our laptop and along with video of everywhere we went we could work out what we liked and what we didn't. When you get to my age you need an aide memoire... It meant that if we wanted to go back to a particular place we could waymark it on the laptop , dump that back to the vista and select the 'goto' option and go there. That's what I think the 'goto' option is Bixy???Another very good use in the car is to use the speed indicator. You can stick to the CORRECT speed and not the normally 10% overrated speedo indication. If you are driving a car with MPH it's great in France until you get used to KPH. My LHD C8 doesn't suffer from that and is the first car I have had with a nearly true speedo.John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyphilpott Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 John, I do not know of any courses in France I am afraid - it is quite new in the UK. Peter Judd set it up in the Lakes as the first of its kind having sold his business to indulge in his passion! He was a voluntary warden for the Lakes National Park and discovered that even the expert wardens had no real idea about gps so not much hope for the rest of us. He has filled the gap in the market very well but I have no doubt others will follow.I don't use my unit in the car but was interested to learn of the improved reception you get with the aerial. You are absolutely correct regarding Goto - I did not use that in my last reply as it was something else to explain! It is certainly one very useful function. Next stage for me is to get a mounting for my mountain bike so I can easily use it when riding. It seems to me that you are very well organised - you obviously share my failing memory cells as I too am a great believer in aide memoires. On the other hand I have never set fire to myself with batteries!!I had heard about using the gps in the car to accurately measure speed, but I recall a post from someone who had been stopped for speeding in France when they had been driving within the limit but the police refused to accept the evidence of the gps log - I guess they needed the income from the fines too much. Where do you live in France?Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 From one who has worked in the development of satellite navigation and communication systems for over 25 years I would caution against assuming that your GPS gives you more accurate measurement of your velocity than your speedometer.rgdsHagar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Two points. The IGN maps give everything that is available on the paper maps including tracks and footpaths when used with a PDA (can't answer for a Garmin or whatever as I don't have one) and are in 1/25,000 scale. There is no loss of data as they are the real maps scanned in.For walking in forests etc it is important to have a GPS head unit that also has the SiRF Xtrac chip. Whilst in this mode for driving there is some lag it's excellent for walking. To give you an idea of it's ability I am sitting in my basement office with about 400mm of concrete and metal directly above then similar for the upstairs ceiling plus the roof tiles and am getting 5 sat's displayed, more than enough to give bearing and height. If you have a PDA with 'bluetooth' the Fortuna Clip On Bluetooth unit is well worth the money (£109 inc VAT). The first models did have problems where in they went bang after a few weeks but this problem was fixed in the middle of last year. I only mention this because they got a bad write up to start with but now have been voted unit of the year by some GPS magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I've just had an e-mail from 7dayshop (by the way I don't work for them!). They have a charger and 4 X 2500 AA bbatteries for £14.99! It's getting to the stage where your car battery will be made up of AA batteries , But perhapse I exagerate slightly?John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I've just had a reply to an e-mail to a mate of mine in the U.K. He has given me 3 more links to look at including Links cables where I got my car adaptor cable from, much cheaper than Golbal Pos Systems. It's a family business and they are very good.http://www.lynks.co.uk/cables.htmlhttp://www.easydevices.co.uk/pcp/GPS_Accessories.htmlhttp://gpsinformation.net/The last one certainly has a boat load of gen!!John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Thanks once again for all this helpful gen. The learning curve is starting to become slightly less steep. Andy, you did ask me to keep the questions coming so here goes. Imagine you are a gps salesman. Tell me why I would want to buy one of these [a Vista]as a walker and less importantly motorist. Am I right to think it will tell me: altitude, distance covered, location, average speed, current speed, direction to next waypoint - what else?Many thanksPatrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Not Andy, but it will also tell you sunrise/set, moon rise/set, gives you the track you have covered and allows you to reverse said track so you can find your way back. Also distance to next waypoint, estimated time of arrival at you destination. If you are in a town it will give you resturants, hotels, garages, street names, it will allow you to find addresses down to street numbers. In fact to save me trying to list everything, if you go to http://www.globalpositioningsystems.co.uk/viewprod.php you can download the manual and it wil give you all the gen 'cause it's toooo much to tell you here 'onest! It's only a 961kb download...John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Ok John, I looked at the manual. Wow! what a tool. I didn't get as far as the bit where it tells you how it makes a cup of tea but pretty impressive. So impressive, in fact, that I've just ordered one. You and Andy should demand commission form Garmin. And could you bear one last question? How do you relate the latitude/longitude to the grid references, for example on OS maps and how does this work in France.Thanks again. [can't wait to go out and get lost].Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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