Vegetarians... What do you do?

[mascamps.com]

Exactly re the cost for TdH. We can charge separately to allow for the more expensive dishes but that would be quite difficult in a TdH where the whole reason for the relatively low prices is that everyone eats the same meal and effectively it's just a bigger sitting than the family normally has.

What ended up happening with our gluten free guest was that she bought her food out all the time and brought quite a heap with her (bread for toast etc.). She also ended up leaving a small mountain behind as she was so much overweight on the way here. We even picked up a nice new kettle!

One thing to watch is that they use eggs in the croissants etc. here which we hadn't even thought about 'til a non-egg eater pointed it out to us; so no breakfast for the non-egg eaters.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Buns,

You said -

I do have a slight problem with the thought that a vegetarian would specify non meat at a non veggie place and not be prepared to reciprocate if they ran a CdH for all comers - I do cook veggie and eat it at friends;

The rationale is that they are taking a moral decision and we as meat eaters are deemed not to be doing so. So we are expected to respect and cater to their high moral principles when they come to us, (or try to be all things to all men, as good little hoteliers) but accept their high moral principles when we go to them.

Now I'm sorry but first of all I do not concede the moral high ground over eating meat. Secondly, I think there are several quite important considerations where politeness and respect for fellow humans should take precedence over respect for animal rights. For example, no matter how strongly one might feel about foie gras production, one does NOT fire bomb restaurants who serve it. That's an extreme case, but several places in California DID get such threats to property and even to their lives.

I've tried to explain my resolution of this problem in so fas as it impinges on my CdH. What I do with and for my vegetarian friends is entirely different. If I invite Penny & Dave, knowing she's a vegetarian and why she decided to become one, it's done with my eyes open, and I'd not DREAM of serving her meat, and I'd take pride in offering them something delicious and entirely in keeping with their diet.

However, I'll repeat that one of the essential pre-conditions of accepting money for meals as CdH proprietors in France, is that the meals fall into the category of Table d'Hôtes as defined by the Ministry of Tourism. All the stuff about being good businessmen, about the lack of vegetarian options and so on have absolutely nothing to do with it, in my view. WE must, as foreigners, be meticuous about keeping to the rules. What the French do or don't do is their business.

What are the rules? We all (guests and owners) eat at the same table, all eat the one same menu and never have more than 15 people.  As I have said before, I really do fail to see why the moral position (which I respect as being entirely valid for them) of one or two of my guests should be imposed on up to 14 other people. By the same token, If I had a party of 10 vegetarians, and two who ate meat, I'd certainly not impose meat on everyone else.

I can find a compromise in fish, if that is acceptable to the non meat eaters. Although with the cost of fish today, I know I'll lose money on the meal. (TdH meals are fixed price and we can't offer fish at a supplement).  If it isn't, and they will only eat eggs and dairy produce, then IF they are the first to order, I may consider planning a suitable meal. But it is MY choice and if I get any feeling I'm being pressured, there is NO WAY I will go along with it. As a good host, I'll try to accommodate my guests, but the converse must apply. They must be good guests and not seek to bully me.

I know this sounds hard nosed, but it is MY reaction to the increasingly strident behaviour of a small minority of "animal rights" activists.

[mascamps.com]

That's all very well saying that you can't add a supplement but given the price difference between a "normal" menu and some fish-based ones, it's not going to be viable to maintain the same price if you've someone staying for a week or more (or a series of such people). We reckoned that we should have been charging around triple our normal price for the fish selection a few weeks back. For a TdH to maintain the same price, they would be losing money for such people and would be forced to reject bookings from such people which can't be within the spirit of the CdH/TdH rules.

Also, it isn't the case that a family would necessarily have the same menu for themselves at a single meal. Perhaps 50 years ago when the rules were set that was the case in France but it certainly isn't the case now. When we ate with Wendy's French cousins there was always a selection for each course so it's not just us brit imports that have varied menus in a family meal. In my own experience it's relatively common for someone in a family to want a veggie option (or fish or no-eggs or whatever) and we ourselves normally have a selection of desserts (and, no, that isn't because we have a hotel - we had a selection in our previous life too).

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Arnold,

You said:-

>That's all very well saying that you can't add a supplement but given the price difference between a "normal" menu and some fish-based ones, it's not going to be viable to maintain the same price if you've someone staying for a week or more (or a series of such people).

I agree, it's a problem for those of us running B&Bs. But you've got no probs, you're running an Hotel, so you are playing by different rules.

We reckoned that we should have been charging around triple our normal price for the fish selection a few weeks back.

Hmm. I do think you're exaggerating slightly. As I said, I think I make a loss, but not to that extent. My personal situation, due to my policy of not cooking for people except on the day they arrive, or when someone else arrives, is that I rarely would be faced with the dilemma more than once and I can face the loss.

For a TdH to maintain the same price, they would be losing money for such people and would be forced to reject bookings from such people which can't be within the spirit of the CdH/TdH rules.

Certainly it is. It may go against the grain for us, wanting to maximise our turnover, no matter what, but the whole concept of the limitations imposed by these rules, is that they ARE limitations. We aren't restaurants, and we have to put restaurant type thinking out of our minds when working out how to deal with Table d'Hôte, I feel.

>Also, it isn't the case that a family would necessarily have >the same menu for themselves at a single meal.

So what, Arnold? You aren't bound by these rules, your thinking isn't and doesn't have to be that of Table d'Hote.But please stop trying to wriggle on MY behalf!! The rules say (amongst other things), "There must be only one menu".

> Perhaps 50 years ago when the rules were set

about 10 years ago actually, and the lobbying by hoteliers and restaurateurs is as powerful as ever it was.

>that isn't because we have a hotel - we had a selection in >our previous life too).

Look, I'm not saying one should be utterly rigid, - this evening, for example, I had some left over Armenian dried fruit compote, as well as the soufflé glacé aux noix that I'd planned. I asked which they'd prefer (they all chose the soufflé, so Jacquie & I finished off the fruit). But that's a completely different ballgame, it seems to me, from offering a completely different vegetarian menu. Or a special Muslim menu, or a special Jewish menu. Can't you see that this is "restaurant thinking". The questions at the back of our minds HAVE to be, "will this ONE menu be viable, both in financial terms and in terms of preparation time", and "will the majority of our guests feel constrained by it". If the answer to the first is "no" then we have a difficult decision to face between our needs and our wish to be good hosts. If the answer the second is "yes" then I think we shouldn't do it, out of consideration for the majority.

[mascamps.com]

No, about triple the price would have given us our normal margin. I don't know anything about fish prices but it was monk fish so perhaps that's an expensive type.

Fair enough re you only cooking the first night and that's probably sustainable if the "veggies" are staying more than one night as it will help you in attracting people. However, my understanding is that most TdH do the evening meals so they could be looking at losing money on every meal for perhaps a week at a time (as per the original message in this thread); that definitely isn't sustainable in my view (although this problem seems to be restricted to those wanting fish).

Losing money definitely isn't within the spirit of the CdH/TdH rules. The whole concept was designed to supplement income for those running the places, not to reduce it.

>So what, Arnold? You aren't bound by these rules, your thinking isn't and doesn't have to be that of Table d'Hote.But please stop trying to wriggle on MY behalf!! The rules say (amongst other things), "There must be only one menu".

Regardless of my own status, we do not operate a single "menu" for ourselves as a family and never have done. My aunt is probably the extreme but before her kids left home she almost always needed to offer three choices of main dish: the normal one, the veggie one and the non-egg one. What I was saying is that it isn't the case that even a family eating by themselves will have a single set of courses on offer. Going by your strict reading of the rules, if my aunt were operating a TdH then she'd not be able to serve the meal selection that she normally did with her own family.

I don't expect anyone running a TdH (or indeed us baby hotels) to be running heaps of different menus. What I'm saying is that the TdH rules are basically that the TdH meal is just a family meal but for more people. Therefore there would appear to be the scope for a selection of courses to be offered. That still leaves the issue of the differing cost but, aside from the fish courses, I don't think that's a big problem.

Incidently, we keep talking about having a set "menu" in our discussions here. What do the rules actually say? They're not using "menu" in the French sense of the term, are they?

 

Arnold

 

[winterbunny]

We seem to be getting back to the rules of CdH and TdH.  I have read the guidance from the Chambre de Commerce in Paris regarding these activities; I can't see that they are rigid rules mostly they are more in the way of guidelines.  Perhaps someone can point me to the written legalities and penalties applying and I'll certainly study them.

In any event, the idea of CdH and TdH is that they are offered in private homes and not small hotels, surely then we can within limits and not to the detriment of our guests enjoyment; serve meals in a manner and style that suits us.  That then gives a better choice for prospective guests and more variety.  Lord help us if we all ended up being moulded into the same pattern, how dull that would be for the holidaymaker - far more so than perhaps serving a meal not quite within guidelines. 

Buns

[mascamps.com]

Ah but, Buns, the problem is that, as Ian rightly says, we are in France and in France they are more into rules & regulations than flexibility. In the UK, I would agree with you and I'm sure that there's many a UK B&B that offers restaurant-style menus but that's not a runner here.

I've no problem accepting Ian's point that a TdH here can't offer a "restaurant" menu because that's obviously well outside the TdH rules/guidelines and in any event it would take a large TdH with a really dedicated "chef" to produce such a thing. Where I take issue is with the idea that you cannot offer a selection if you wish - after all many families do that when cooking for themselves so, on the basis that a TdH meal is a family meal for a larger "family", why can you not offer the same selection? Taking the example of my aunt, if she could offer a veggie choice to her daughter at each meal, why could she not also have offered the same selection to a guest had she been running a TdH?

 

 

Arnold

 

[Coco]

I can understand that it isn't "allowed" to offer a choice of menus, separate tables etc, or a TDH would have an nfair advantage over hotels, with all their associated costs etc.  However, it occurred to me that what you could do, if, in my case for example, where we have only 2 or 3 rooms and all are booked by the same party, a choice of starters, main meal and desserts are offered at breakfast, for the eveing meal - on the proviso that all have to settle on the same meal, and yet still allowing a degree of choice.  As would happen, for example, at a wedding reception, or company Christmas do.

The other day I had an email from some Australians who are coming in July, asking for a copy of our menu, so that they could make their choicES - one of them being diabetic.  I wrote back, explaining that a TDH wasn't able to offer choices to each individual but decided that I would put the onus on them to work out a meal suitable for the diabetic.  So I sent a choice of 4 starters, main courses and desserts and asked them to choose a meal for the 4 of them.  I now have the peace of mind of knowing that they will all LIKE what I serve up and that the diabetic won't have a problem with any of it.  It's something I may do again in future. 

As Winterbunny says, if we are in our own home surely we should have the flexibility to serve the dinner as we please.  After all, if I were having friends to dinner I would check if they liked what I intended to serve.  We have two sets of friends we often invite along together; one of the girls won't eat pork, the other won't eat duck.  I wouldn't dream of cooking two separate meals, I would just avoid BOTH meats.  This way I make the rules by telling them what the choices are, but have the peace of mind of knowing that after slaving over a hot stove all day, I'm not going to get someone say, oh I don't eat chocolate, I'm on a diet....

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Arnold & Buns,

Arnold says "surely the rules are that we offer a family style meal and because my aunt offered three choices of everything.... (sigh)"

Buns says "surely these are guidelines, not rules."

I have been basing my replies and opinions on a document produced by the Ministere de l'Equipement, des Transports et Du Tourisme - "Direction du Tourisme". The document is fairly old, and some parts have been overtaken by other rules, though not those to do with defining Tables d'Hôtes. It is called (note the wording).

"La réglementation dans le Secteur paracommerciale". (I shall assume your French is up to scratch on this, for the moment, but don't hesitate to ask if the meanings are  not clear") "Réglementation" means rules, not guidelines.

In this document, on page 15 we find

"Table d'Hôte" (Agriculteur ou Particulier)

"Les tables d'hôtes, réservées aux touristes qui occupent un hébergement proposé par le propriétaire, permettent aux touristes qui utilisent la chambre d'hôte ou un camping à la ferme, de goûter également à la cuisine locale à la table familiale.

"Le nombre de convives est limité à 15 personnes au maximum hébergées en Chambres d'hôte en plus de la famille de l'exploitant. Cette forme de restauration doit donc respecter 3 principes.

- 1 seul menu par service

- 1 seule table et prise des repas en commun

- ne pas dépasser la capacité d'accueil

Si un de ces principes n'était pas respecté, la table d'hôte deviendrait un restaurant."

Then later on on page 42, (dealing with non people doing Table d'Hote who aren't farmers) we find.

"Interdiction

- Plusieurs menus par service

- Plusieurs tables

- Restauration sans hébergement

- dépassement de la capacité d'accueil (15 convives maximum)

Si les conditions n'étaient pas remplis, la table d'hôte serait un restaurant."

Now (Note that what I've been saying about eating with the clients is NOT mentioned, so I apologise to those I've misled about it), the word "interdiction" is FAR stronger than "Déconseillé" It means "forbidden". So having more than one menu is forbidden, as is having service at different times and at several tables.

These are not rules that are restricted to Gites de France members, they apply to anyone offering a meal for money (loosely speaking)  if they're NOT a recognised commercial catering establishment - restaurant, brasserie, bar etc.

As I've said before, minor infractions on a one off basis, and for particular reasons probably won't involve problems. Although Buns doesn't like the French system of making rules, the equally French system of trying to apply them with intelligence greatly softens the rigid rule structure. So while I can't imagine that making an omelette once in a while for someone who doesn't eat meat or fish, is going to cause problems, on the other hand regularly offering a separate "Vegetarian Menu", or "Jewish Menu" or "Muslim Menu" WILL be regarded as going too far over the dividing line.

We MUST work on the assumption that WE as foreigners don't have a built-in understanding of how far we can go in breaking the rules (most French do seem to, usually).  Equally, we have to work on the assumption that everything we do will be observed, commented upon, chewed over and reported. It certainly happens to us here. I don't know how many times almost total strangers have come up to us in Argentat, (11 kms away from us here) and said "Aren't you the English who run that CdH in Forges?" and when we say we are. "We understand that you cook wonderfully well, would there be any chance of booking a meal with you?"

So it's wholly naive to assume that we can regularly do several things that are against TdH rules, and NOT have it known to the Authorities. And it is even more naive to assume that if a local restaurateur runs into difficulties, it won't occur to him to blame you for his problems.

Can I say that WE have chosen to live in France, run a business which is subject to French laws, and seek to make money from our location in France. It seems to me to be a bit steep then to grumble about not liking the way the French run things.

[Owens88]

Going back to my little intervention on this issue I am glad to see that many people have highlighted that some degree of flexibility is possible without either being commercially crippling or incurring the wrath of the law. AND that clear blue water can be maintained between Cdh/TdH and Restaurants/Hotels without a 'one size fits all' mentality.

For many years our style at home was not to serve meals 'already plated' but to put dishes in the middle for the family to choose from. Even more so when we had family guests (not necessarily a dinner party). A couple of years ago I was staying with a (very friendly and accomodating) Hote and I aksed him why he 'plated'. He said it was to control presentation. I now realise that balancing portion control may be part of it as well (commercial issues).

But if cooking for, say, approaching a dozen at one table (within the rules listed in the last posting) would it be so strange if there were a couple of dishes containing different 'main course' elements on the table ?

 

[mascamps.com]

It would appear that we have been arguing over nothing.

"1 seul menu par service" means in english terms "1 fixed price menu per sitting". It DOES allow a choice for each course; what it doesn't allow is a different price.

So under that rule, as written, you could have, say:

entree:

choice of X or Y or Z

main:

choice of meat or vegetarian

dessert:

choice of A or B or C

 

Where that differs from a restaurant is that a French restaurant will normally offer a number of menus at different prices (and indeed a la carte). You could even do a la carte under that TdH rule by listing a single price but lots of selections for each course.

Is my reading of that rule correct?

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Arnold said:-

It would appear that we have been arguing over nothing.

"1 seul menu par service" means in english terms "1 fixed price menu per sitting". It DOES allow a choice for each course; what it doesn't allow is a different price.

Would that were true. But no. One menu, means one menu, it doesn't mean a choice of dishes at one fixed price. Go and ask at your local service des consommateurs office. Arnold with deep respect to you, Jacquie is half French, has a degree in French and taught it 20+ years I'm now virtually bilingual, having lived here 16+ years. I HAVE been involved in this for 10 years and oddly enough I was concerned about the rules as they applied to me. So whatever you may want us to believe, it just ain't so.

Coco says:-

I can understand that it isn't "allowed" to offer a choice of menus, separate tables etc, or a TDH would have an nfair advantage over hotels,

Absolutely right!

where we have only 2 or 3 rooms and all are booked by the same party, a choice of starters, main meal and desserts are offered at breakfast, for the eveing meal - on the proviso that all have to settle on the same meal, and yet still allowing a degree of choice.

Indeed, I can see no possible problem in doing that. I do a very similar thing. I don't know if you noticed on my "form letter", but I ask my clients to tell me if there's anything they can't eat, and then I plan the meal on that basis.  What matters is that we all sit down to the same thing. However equally obviously, if you'd planned a quiche as a starter, and then it turns out you've got a coeliac who's come, then no one is going to object if you cut off a chunk of paté for them, or a slice of ham.

them.  I now have the peace of mind of knowing that they will all LIKE what I serve up and that the diabetic won't have a problem with any of it.

Brilliant solution!

As Winterbunny says, if we are in our own home surely we should have the flexibility to serve the dinner as we please. 

Well, yes, of course we can as long as we don't charge for our meals. If we do, then we are either running Table d'Hote or a restaurant - as far as the French administration is concerned. And there are rules (discussed ad nauseam) that govern what happens.

It may be true that an "englishman's home is his castle" in the UK (it isn't and never has been, of course) but that concept doesn't even exist in France. So no, you can't do whatever you like in your own home in France.

After all, if I were having friends to dinner I would check if they liked what I intended to serve. 

Absolutely right, and that's exactly what we do too.

Finally, turning to John's point (and completely changing the subject, but why not?)

For many years our style at home was not to serve meals 'already plated' but to put dishes in the middle for the family to choose from. Even more so when we had family guests (not necessarily a dinner party). A couple of years ago I was staying with a (very friendly and accomodating) Hote and I aksed him why he 'plated'. He said it was to control presentation. I now realise that balancing portion control may be part of it as well (commercial issues).

We usually put dishes in the middle of the table, as being more "family". However, we have found that it can be quite hard to get people to serve themselves and eachother, so often have to chivvy them slightly ;-)) That said, Jacquie usually serves people the meat - at table - asking them how much they would like, as one would at home, and there are occasions (magrets de canard) when that's probably saved some red faces!

However in recent years we've taken to doing some of Gordon Ramsey's dishes, and these (and some others too) most definitely do require plating in advance. But this is purely for presentational reasons, and has little to do with portion control. Equally, for the fourth course, we serve three very good (and rather expensive) local cheeses, and I always serve that - not for portion control, but to keep the cheeses usable to the last bit. I encourage them to come back for seconds and thirds, but rarely have takers!

In the 10 years we've done TdH, I don't think we've ever had a serious problem over portions. It's true that we cater pretty generously, but I can't think of any occasion when our guests have taken too much. No!! I tell a lie!! We grow purple sprouting brocolli, and we served the last of it the day before yesterday. One of our guests did slightly over estimate the amount he gave his wife and himself, but Jacquie & I still had enough. We just couldn't offer any for seconds, so they just had to make do with the lamb and spuds.

I find that over catering about 10% is a wise precaution, in that we usually have some left overs, while our guests can eat to their fill.

[mascamps.com]

I also have a degree in French; it means nothing in terms of the definition of "menu".

Definitely not Ian. French "menus" do offer a choice. If the rule says "1 seul menu par service" then it means that a single fixed price "english menu" can be offered per sitting ie one with (potentially) multiple choices for each dish. If the definition of "menu" isn't changed elsewhere in the document then that's what it means and, if you think about it, it's the only way it makes sense as, even in France, a family dining together does not always have a single choice per course.

I accept that you are concerned about the rules as they applied to you. However, when was the last time that you actually looked in detail about the specific phrase we are debating? The word "menu" has a very different meaning in French from English and is one that is easily confused.

For that reason, your advice to "ask at your local service des consommateurs office" won't work as you will lose the nuances of the meaning of the word. The thing to do is to run up a single "menu" with choices for each course and ask them if that is acceptable for a TdH "menu". I think you will find that they will say "certainly, what's wrong with it?", assuming, of course, that the specific phrase that you quoted doesn't have any of the words redefined anywhere else.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Arnold,

Whatever are we going to do with you. You show amazing stubborness in believing what you want to believe.

you said:-

Definitely not Ian. French "menus" do offer a choice.

Restaurant menus certainly. But as I've tried to explain, we are supposed NOT to be competing with restaurants. To do TdH it's ONE menu, (meaning one meal) ONE table, and ONE service.

about it, it's the only way it makes sense as, even in France, a family dining together does not always have a single choice per course.

Sigh.... I've never seen a choice except perhaps in the matter of cheeses, at an ordinary dinner in a private home. But I've only been living here 16 years and eating with the French in their homes for 20. Perhaps next year I'll be invited to a home where the lady of the house dishes a chicken casserole and for those who prefer no meat, some fish, with an option for vegetarians.

You ask

When was the last time that you actually looked in detail about the specific phrase we are debating? The word "menu" has a very different meaning in French from English and is one that is easily confused.

Arnold for HEAVEN'S sake, I worked 20 years as a chef specialising in French Haute cuisine. I know what menu means in French. Both in a restaurant and more generally. When I chat to our neighbour Linette, and I say I'm cooking for friends she asks me "qu'est qu'il y a au menu?" There's absolutely NO implication of multiple dishes.

Which isn't to say that when serving an entrée, for example, there couldn't be paté, jambon cru and salad, and that one person might take paté, another the salad and the third all three.

As for "the last time". It was about three weeks ago. After reading all the brouhaha about multiple menus and a choice of dishes in a single menu, I asked them. I ALSO asked Gites De France, they both agreed ONE menu means ONE meal. Certainly that's what all our local Fermes Auberge do at their Table d'Hotes.  So, as I said, YOU ask yours.  Print out what I typed out, explaining what its from, and show them your suggested multiple choice menu with vegetarian options and so forth and ask them. You obviously WON'T accept that I really do know what I'm talking about, so go and find out for yourself.

[BJSLIV]

With absolutely no axe to grind  and no vested interest,may intrude on this private squabble?

A  Menu Unique in French catering parlance  refers to a situation where all guests at a table eat the same thing. It most commonly occurs in connection with weddings and large business meals where you eat what the organiser has chosen and paid for.

And it is this concept that was picked up for TdH which of course is the traditional way of organising family eating. Mum buys and prepares, and puts it in front of hubbie and kids with no silly messing about with choice! Eat it or Starve!

That is what keeps the cost down, and if people can't fit in with the model then customers have the choice to go self catering, to patronise a specialist CdH, or use an hotel. Similarly if someone wants to offer fully flexible menus, then they don't have to register as CdH they can operate as an hotel.

 

 

[mascamps.com]

There is one word Ian. It doesn't have a different definition for a TdH. As I say, the way to know for sure is to go along to the folk that actually regulate the thing, as you suggested, but to show them a menu with choices. Are you telling me that they would reject a typical menu that we, as a family dining alone, would present because it had (as it normally would) two different starters, two (or sometimes three) different mains and a couple of different desserts? I emphasise that that's what we always did ie the hotel has had no effect on that.

It doesn't matter how many years you have been here. It is a fact that I have been to a French family who DO offer a choice. Well, "choice" isn't the right word really - they had a number of different main courses on the table at once and you choose from them. Perhaps that's just a Normany thing but it certainly does happen.

>Which isn't to say that when serving an entrée, for example, there couldn't be paté, jambon cru and salad, and that one person might take paté, another the salad and the third all three.

But isn't that what I'm saying? Doing that gives a choice of three starters.

 

I fully accept that the principle behind TdH is that it's a meal with the family. However, as I keep saying some families offer a "choice" even when it's just themselves eating alone and that's why I think that you're wrong about the definition of "menu" in this case. The operational difference from a restaurant is that there's a fixed amount of food so, for instance, not everyone would be able to choose the meat course rather than the vegeterian one ie in practice the choice (or at least the proportion of people make one choice over another) is decided in advance.

I have eaten with families both here and in the UK who habitually offer a choice, whether it be a specific vegetarian choice for my aunt's daughter or a choice of meat or fish as was the case with our French cousins. It may well be that in your own area there are no families that do such things but that doesn't mean that's the case everywhere because it isn't.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

From Larousse:

2. MENU n.m. 1. Liste détaillée des plats servis a un repas, 2. Repas a prix fixe servi dans un restaurant (par oppos. au repas à la carte, dont les plats sont choisis par le client).

So, unless the definition of "menu" has been changed by the TdH legislation (which is, of course, possible) then a TdH CAN offer a choice of courses in their menu.

I assume that part 2 of the definition fixes the price of the TdH menu in practice in that the rules that you previously quoted specified a single menu (ie one price) and indeed with the common parlance of "menu at x€". I imagine that you can't offer à la carte as that's not considered a "menu" but in any event that would rule out the single price for the meal.

Again, I accept that most TdH will not offer a choice of courses but that's their choice as far as I can see going by the rules you're quoting. Naturally, it is a lot simpler and cheaper to do that but you appear to be able to offer a vegetarian choice if you want to.

 

Arnold

 

[winterbunny]

Things have moved on this since I was last able to drop in - but Ian I do have to take you up on one point.  I most definately am not against French rules and regulations.  Can you let me have a link for the document you quote from, I would be most interested to see the up to date position.  All I have been able to see so far in the info I have, does not give any penal strictures or fines etc..I would find it useful to know the complete picture.  I am perfectly happy with reading legal docs in French. 

Having lived and worked in France for over 10 years; I understand that France is not the UK!! and thank heavens for that.

Even in France one is able to stay well within the rules/guidelines and still operate an effective, flexible and legal business, which is what I aim to do.

Like Coco I determine the likes and dislikes of our guests beforehand and cook accordingly.  Ours are always set menus.  I do not and would not offer a choice of menus or any part of a menu for any particular night but I vary our set menu each day and don't think I've ever cooked the same complete menu, I like variety, but include regularly my tried and tested favourites.  And I agree Arnold that we cannot and should not offer a restaurant variety of menus.  Personally I wouldn't want to do that.  I'm a perfectly good home cook for a small number of people eating the same food, but am not trained as a chef and wouldn't offer myself as one. I also serve it within French restaurant rules of water and bread on the table, we also include wine in with the price so it is a complete menu with no choice apart from red or white or both!

Our own preferred way of eating is to serve from central bowls and platters; so I tend to do this for TdH guests as well.  Those desserts I make as individual glasses such as trifles and mousses are 'plated' so to speak as are the salad starters.  I don't like have a plated main meal stuck in front of me in private homes, I put up with it in a restaurant.  Sometimes people just put too much in general which is overfacing or too much of one thing and I would prefer to serve myself.

An instance last night was that most of our guests wanted to try some of our home grown duck, however one only eats chicken and fish, the whole menu was served except I gave her a steamed chicken breast with the cherry and Kirsch sauce I had made for the duck breasts and veg served as for the others.  Personally I don't see this as falling outwith any rules, if I had served her duck it would have been wasted and I always have chicken breasts in so where was the problem, she didn't actually have a choice I told her what she was getting.  Incidentally for the rest of their stay I have been cooking exclusively chicken and fish for all of us.  I would not cook veggie for a whole table unless they were all happy to eat it, I think this is one area where it would be perfectly OK to serve a separate main course.  As I've said before it only needs to be the main dish to be served as specifically veggie, the rest of the meal can be worked as veggie with nobody really knowing it.

Buns

 

 

[Miki]

Sorry but this has all got terribly confused as to what can or cannot be done and at the end of the day, it is not something cast in stone.

Menus : What GDF are saying, is quite simply that one cannot have resto prix fixe type menus. Like a 10€ lunch (not allowed by the way, actual lunches are a definite no)or differing evening menus at say 15€, 20€ or even 30€. This would mean then, that therefore one cannot give a choice of menus pricewise nor in fact offer diferent starters, plat principals etc.

Now none of the bods at GDF are crazy enogh to believe that veggies cannot eat if beef or meat etc is on the menu, they know a good host will cook them something else, like wise if some do not like duck but will eat chicken though.

There has to be give and take or NO one would actually be a TDH. We all want our guests to return, or at least be made welcome and have a good stay, therefore we have to be very flexible. To do this, we all offer differing styles of accommodation, different times of eating, different breakfasts, different wines, different menus with a certain amount of flexibilty as to who will eat what and who won't and if any guest (or owner) does not want to be so permanently or just on occasion, then that is their individual perogative.

GDF have rules that have been discussed and agreed sometime ago with the government and hotel asscoiations, as to how TDf's can act. It was made to safeguard the hotels and restos. As has been said before, we really do have to respect that.

I have looked around and on Arnolds site alone, there are one or two that have well and truly overstepped the "legal" mark. That's OK by me but TDH competitors in the region who see people offering restaurant style menus on the net may well say "hold on, they may not be GDF but they still come under the rules of TDH"

I know of a few others that offer resto type menus in their TDH, some are pretty quiet about it all but others advertise the fact on the WWW, they are either ignorant of the rules or just don't give a fig.

It is about being both flexible and above all, sensible. Sure we can make ourselves look a little professional and offer meals that restos would admire but what we must NEVER do is act like a resto to the public. It might be allowed for a B&B in the UK but it is against the regulations here to do so.

Some time ago, someone said that as they had registered at the C de Com, they were entitled to do TDH like a resto and even said the Maire had allowed them to put a board up on the front of the whose with the nights menus on it. No amount of discussing would make them see he was not allowed to do such a thing. He just repeated what M le Maire had said, which to me only proved that the Maire knew sod all about the regulations and that they must learn that the Maire would not have been the person to be admonished !!

There is no point in carrying on saying we do this and you do that, the regulations are in place and to a point they must be kept to but sensible flexibilty within reasoning of the rules is the name of the game surely.....

[mascamps.com]

Well off topic as you say Miki.

I agree that under the TdH rules you can't offer a range of menus as per the restaurant "menu at 10€", "menu at 15€", etc. However, going by the definition that Ian has quoted, you can offer one of those menus which itself can have a choice of courses. The issues of choice of courses and a single price are quite separate things.

However, in practical terms, it would be crazy for, say, a one bedroom TdH to offer a choice of 3 starters, 3 mains and 3 desserts. From my reading of the rule, they could do that but they don't have to do it and for most TdHs I suspect that it's best to stick to one "choice" per course for reasons of economics and simplicity.

I agree that it's best not to overstep the mark but it would appear from the actual rule as stated in French that there is much, much more flexibility available than the vast majority of people are using.

My site would muddy the waters... as you know we're in the process of moving into "hotel land" and as part of that, we have started to make our menus look much more French than they did originally. In fact, assuming that my reading of the rule Ian quotes is correct, our original menu was well within the TdH definition (more by accident than by design!).

To my reading of the rule that Ian quoted, you could offer a menu that wouldn't be much out of place in a UK restaurant. The only difference appears to be that it would have to be for a set price so that you could charge, say, 30€ for 3 courses with wine but if someone only wanted two courses and no wine, you would still have to charge them the 30€. Again, it would be pretty silly to go quite that far because you'd almost certainly lose money through the phenomal amount of wastage that it would entail.

I have severe doubts as to the amount of knowledge that our own mairie have in any field. From what you say, that applies all across France!

To throw this thread even more, it just occured to me that a TdH could run restaurant style quite legally by adopting a tactic from the package tour operators from some years ago to get around some rule about them having to offer accommodation. To offer a restaurant meal in a TdH (ie a meal without accommodation), all you need to do is to rent them some accommodation. Therefore, in principle, you could notionally offer, say, your hayshed for 1€ to someone for the night if they wanted a meal. Ian's going to scream at me for saying that I'm sure It does appear to be an entirely legal way to do it though (you'd still be limited to 15 diners and a single set price for your "menu").

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Arnold says:-

go along to the folk that actually regulate the thing, as you suggested, but to show them a menu with choices. Are you telling me that they would reject a typical menu that we, as a family dining alone, would present because it had (as it normally would) two different starters, two (or sometimes three) different mains and a couple of different desserts.

Yes Arnold that's EXACTLY what I'm saying, whether your family has always done it or not, it isn't the norm here in France.

Then :-

>Which isn't to say that when serving an entrée, for example, there couldn't be paté, jambon cru and salad, and that one person might take paté, another the salad and the third all three.

But isn't that what I'm saying? Doing that gives a choice of three starters.

No, no. no!! I serve ONE starter, consisting of all three things, I'm expecting all my guests to help themselves to all three.

When it comes to mains, I may very well have a roast leg of lamb, cooked on a bed of roasted veggies, with some roast spuds alongside. I may have another veg or two. But there _isn't_ a choice there, even if one of my guests may decide not to have the roasted vegetables, or that the spuds are too fattening. There is ONE main course which consists of a number of components, which I will be expecting ALL my guests to take in fact, as I've already asked them if they don't like anything.

A restaurant menu may well offer a choice of main dishes, Cotes de porc a la Normande, blanc de poulet garni or Dos de Cabillaud. I specifically asked about this sort of choice, and was told that it is NOT permitted as it brings us too close to competing with a restaurant. 

Buns asks:-

Can you let me have a link for the document you quote from, I would be most interested to see the up to date position.

I'm afraid I don't have one. I have it in hard copy form. Maybe if you were to get in touch with Gites de France head office in your region. I fully accept, by the way, that you are running a CdH in full compliance with the rules - though it CAN be hard to work out sometimes, what the blessed things are. However, reading Calva's letter makes it clear that she thinks (as does Arnold) there are many who don't want to do so.

and then says:-

Even in France one is able to stay well within the rules/guidelines and still operate an effective, flexible and legal business, which is what I aim to do.

I agree wholeheartedly. Where my emphasis is perhaps different, is that I try to run my meals as if they were a dinner party. I know this is slightly different from the "french" approach, but that seems to me to be entirely consistent with that fascinating diversity that makes up the CdH business.

Finally she gives an example:-

An instance last night was that most of our guests wanted to try some of our home grown duck, however one only eats chicken and fish, the whole menu was served except I gave her a steamed chicken breast with the cherry and Kirsch sauce I had made for the duck breasts and veg served as for the others.  Personally I don't see this as falling outwith any rules, if I had served her duck it would have been wasted and I always have chicken breasts in so where was the problem, she didn't actually have a choice I told her what she was getting.

I think that an ultra strict interpretation of the rules would probably say that you did stray over the edge, but I would probably have done the same thing and felt the same way about it. That's the great advantage (it seems to me) about living here. The rules may seem very strict, but as long as you're seen to be good news to the area, and are obviously not going out of your way to compete with local restaurateurs unfairly, then they'll be interpreted with generosity and intelligence. Try suggesting such an approach to most British civil servants, especially at local govt. level and they'll explode with quivering indignation

Miki came back to say:-

Menus : [snip]  therefore one cannot give a choice of menus pricewise nor in fact offer different starters, plat principals etc.

Exactly.

There has to be give and take or NO one would actually be a TDH. We all want our guests to return, or at least be made welcome and have a good stay, therefore we have to be very flexible.

Again, I agree completely. And as you and I have both said the rules areto be kept to - flexibly!! (Hooray for French pragmatism!).

Finally Arnold adds (as only Arnold  would)

it just occurred to me that a TdH could run restaurant style quite legally by adopting a tactic [snip]... all you need to do is to rent them some accommodation. Therefore, in principle, you could notionally offer, say, your hayshed for 1€ to someone for the night if they wanted a meal. Ian's going to scream at me for saying that I'm sure  It does appear to be an entirely legal way to do it though (you'd still be limited to 15 diners and a single set price for your "menu"

Well, it would be hard to say they are "staying with you" when the police come round at midnight looking for your "hayshed".  But more to the point, I think you'll find that this is a case where you won't be able to rely on the french applying the rules flexibly and generously. One thing the authorities hate and detest is some smart@r$e , whether french or foreign trying to outsmart the system.

So the sort of thing you could expect would be for the fisc to descend on you asking to see your receipts for every piece of food you've bought for the last 5 years (oh yes, at one time you did have to keep them), and going through your books with a fine tooth comb. They're perfectly entitled to do so at ANY time, if they "have reason to believe" that you're cheating. And "reason to believe" could be the local restaurant phoning in a not very anonymous denunciation.

And then you might get a cousin of the local hotelier (unknown to you), claiming to have got food poisoning after a meal, and denouncing you to the Service des Consommateurs, who would then carry out a full scale sanitary inspection. 

And while you're still reeling from that, the Mayor might well find that one of your application for a Declaration de Travaux wasn't "conforme" so you have to take down the extension.

So Arnold, if YOU want to go down that path, fine. But I don't think it's very wise advice for others who might be starting out in an area where CdH are not very well liked.

[winterbunny]

This lot is getting good reading what!

Inforeg states roughly translated that there isn't a legal definition of tables d'hotes, and that the traditional way of distinguishing it from a restaurant is that 4 elements need to be respected, otherwise it becomes classed as a restaurant.

1. it is an activity run along side an hebergement activity

2. one menu is offered without the possibility of any choice for any course and cooked from local ingredients (my best translation on terroir)

3. It is served at a family table and to the extent that the  paying guests don't all have separate tables

4.  that the number eating is limited to the sleeping capacity in the hebergement.

I also interpret this as it doesn't mean that the local ingredients can't be cooked in an imaginative way, nor that if the guests choose not to have a couple or 2 courses they can't be charged less.  GdF only state a maximum you can charge not a minimum and inforeg is silent on this altogether, apart from stating the guests should know how much they are to be charged and should be given a proper bill.  Inforeg only gives a guideline before these conditions that the meal would normally be regional in flavour, but also says in the manner of the host family - if your method of cooking is not your French regional I don't really think it is considered of the greatest importance, provided you use local ingredients.

The matter of where they eat is more important if your family table is in the kitchen with your pets and cooking going on - my interpretation of the more important food hygiene regs which also apply to tables d'hotes; mean that this is forbidden, so as long as your guests eat at one table and you can eat there yourself it doesn't have to be and actually shouldn't be in your own kitchen/diner.

Frankly I really don't think anyone is going to get into trouble for giving one guest a different main course because of dietary dislikes or needs.  I would be prepared to challenge it with the authorities if they decided to have a pop at me for giving one lass a chicken breast instead of duck!! especially as that chicken was local fermier.

As for competing with local restaurants, no we offer a different service.  I actively encourage my guests to go the local restaurants and book the tables for them if they don't speak French.  A lot choose to have meals because they don't want to drive again that night (we're not in walking distance of any) or because like us they've got fed up of an endless choice of beef or duck or veal head, or frozen fish; all with the same sauces and frankly a lot not locally sourced because of cost - I've seen the Metro promos and then lo and behold they appear on the menus.  If the local restaurants complain because of the few meals in proportion we do then they have to look to producing good quality food choice that people want.  The tourist trade here is growing and all local people in it including ourselves have to move to keep up with modern demands.

Buns

 

[Quillan]

You know you guys should get together and thrash this out because it's going on and on and another thread has been high jacked. Ian, you are really just repeating AGAIN what you have said in another thread. Great you do yours one way others do things another. If you are happy and they are happy that’s all that really matters.

This aside what I find difficult to grasp is that you guys who offer a selection must have loads of time on your hands to cook all this stuff because I find I am so busy I just don’t have the time so perhaps I am doing something wrong somewhere.

I find it all very simple, we do one meal and it's 4 courses with wine, the guests either like it or lump it. All we do when we confirm the booking is ask if the guest has any special dietary requirements. I’m a great believer in the KISS principle, keep it simple stupid, follow this rule and it really is a breeze.

Well I shall leave you guys to carry on arguing the toss, I have some guests to entertain (Bob Marley impressions tonight).

[mascamps.com]

Ah but Ian, no matter how strict the interpretation is, the rule as stated on that document you have does allow for a choice of courses. It's quite clear from the definition in Larousse of the word "menu". The only way that it can be otherwise is if (and this may well be the case), the word "menu" as used in the TdH legislation has been redefined (and it may well have been going by Bun's quote).

The hayshed option was very much tongue in cheek and I wouldn't dream of going down that route myself. However, a TdH run along those lines would be entirely within the terms of the laws as you have quoted them Ian. I do accept that a very dim view would almost certainly be taken of someone running on that basis (quite rightly too in my view) but it would definitely be within the TdH rules as you have stated them no matter how much you might wish it to be otherwise. The fact that the hayshed option relies on people not really taking up their "accommodation" doesn't invalidate it as a legal (if crazy) way for a TdH to run a quasi restaurant - this is exactly what the package tour people did when they wanted to sell seats on their airlines without accommodation.

 

What's this "inforeg" that you're quoting from Bun?

 

On a more general note, is there a definitive set of documents defining the various aspects of CdH/TdH etc.? It strikes me that many's a recent thread has sailed off into the sunset because nobody has a complete set of said documents to refer to.

 

On a totally different point, can I ask a question re the "table" at this point? Do you TdH folk actually use a single table as has been stated in the various rules quoted? I have a problem envisioning a table of the size that would allow 15 guests and 6 or 7 family around it and indeed a room long enough to fit one such table in.

 

Taking up another point... it would be completely illegal under European law for the TdH legislation to restrict you to using local ingredients these days. The reading would have to be "European" rather than "local" in the same way that any law that specifies that someone or something must be French has to be read as though it said that the someone or something must be European.

 

It is so offputting to eat in the restaurants round here once you've had a trip round the local Metro! The problem that we have encountered in preparing the meals from scratch is that they are different from Metro/Promocash/etc. and it's hard to sell them to the locals because of that. Much as we would wish it to be otherwise, the local French (at least in our area) are a very, very unadventurous bunch when it comes to food.

 

 

Arnold

 

[winterbunny]

Arnold:

inforeg is a very useful government site which gives information on a whole host of businesses.  I originally accessed it through the CCI Paris site which governs all the chambres of commerce;  gives useful food for thought for all of us offering chambre d'hotes and tables d'hotes

http://www.inforeg.ccip.fr/fiches/pdf/chambres_hote.pdf

http://www.inforeg.ccip.fr/fiches/pdf/table_hote.pdf

They are quite specific if you serve at more than one table you are a restaurant, if you serve a choice you are a resaturant.  You can also access links for the hygiene rules and food prep for your area.

Buns