Flexible and Legal; where do you draw the line

[winterbunny]

You’ve invested time and money in setting up your rooms and fitting them out, you’ve got your registration and licence sorted, if you’re with say GdF you’ve been inspected and graded and your (expensive) advertising campaign is under way. Then the inquiries start to come in and hopefully your business is going to start giving you returns. You soon realise that you will have to offer meals as more and more of your potential guests are asking for this and you know you’ve lost business because you don’t do them. You kit out your kitchen and dining room, make sure you have at least a vague idea of food hygiene, get your anti-poisoning insurance and off you go offering your table d’hotes.

You take some very nice bookings and one weekend you’re full, you’ve got a party of 15 in plus your family of 5, you are catering for 20 at ‘family’ meals. You have table space for all, but in 2 tables side by side – good, you can separate off the noisy kids, the table bore, the loudmouth and the family can spread themselves in between warring partners. Nope, you can’t, that would be a restaurant.

Then you are informed little Emily is a vegetarian/gluten dairy free/peanut allergy (all or any) can you do special little meal for her – only too delighted it’s a big booking! Nope you can’t that would be a restaurant, you are offering choice.

The party don’t want huge meals just a couple of courses, can you do it, yes only to pleased to oblige, you’ll reduce the price to reflect the smaller meal – you think yes, I can do this as all are being offered the same meal for the same price even if it is less than your normal menu. Well at least you’ve got something right. Or is not offering something considered to be choice? If it is the answer is yes, this is choice you can't do it, you’d be a restaurant.

So what do you do, realistically.

You take the booking and accommodate their needs.

You have to, if you don’t you will lose a very lucrative booking and they’ll still make a reservation somewhere else, probably at Jane Doe’s down the road, who is operating without registration, licence, insurance or paying dues and you know she’s a couple of euros less than you and frankly doesn’t care less about the regs you’ve studied so hard and tried to abide by.

Buns

[Cerise]

Quite right Buns.  I think no-one should deliberately be a restaurant, but commonsense has to come in somewhere.

At least 2 French CdH in my area also 'cater' for private parties.  Not officially you understand, but everyone knows that in the off season they'll do a dinner or birthday party for you.  Do I care, no I don't - and neither do the restaurants around here which are largely shut out of season.  I have a very good relationship with the local restaurants - actually wish some of my clients would go out a bit more often and certainly try to encourage them to patronise local places.  One day last winter the chef from local hotel/restaurant actually asked if I would feed his only two guests on their 'closed' day as it would save him having to prepare a meal for 2 people - in return he would feed my only 2 guests the next day.  Shock, horror, I said yes.  I have never felt that the local gendarmerie would be round to imprison me for this heinous offence.  

I am in favour of regulation but not taken to ridiculous extremes and as you rightly point out if we don't try for a bit of flexibility there are plenty of unregulated places that will.  Maybe it is different in other areas but in this area even the authorities seemed a bit surprised that I wished to do things legally - the man at the Customs was pleased, but slightly astounded when we went to get a licence saying that when he drove around he saw loads of signs for TdH but issued very few licences

Maggi

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

As always in France, you don't draw the line! You know the rules, and you apply most of them, most of the time and with intelligence and commonsense.

There are two quite different issues here it seems to me.

1 Do we know what the rules are?

2. How do we apply them?

What I (and Miki too, it seems to me) have been saying is that we MUST know what we're supposed to be doing, and we mustn't be seen to be systematically going against the principles that goevern what we are.

I've eaten at a CdH that had two great trestle tables running along the length of this great cavernous room, there must have been space for 30 people easily. Now don't tell ME they were never full to capacity. The owner grilled lamb chops for us all until we were falling off our seats, and it was all a joyous bordel. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Equally, one of our guests once was visiting family and asked if we could feed them too. Sure we could, and so we were over capacity for our table (and our CdH too for that matter). We grabbed another table, and did spit roast pork on the BBQ for everyone.

But I've also seen people here (not Arnold, btw) who say they offer several different priced menus (I presume that's for the same meal, though I suppose - it had never occurred to me till this instant - it's possible that all they ever cooked was four menus, and so when a guest booked they were told, "These are our menus, which do you want?" ) and whose web sites show lots of little tables. There's no WAY they're doing TdH, and I expect that sooner or later they'll get into deep doodoo.

And like Maggi, we often have come to the sort of arrangement with our local hotelier/restaurant friends that she describes. I have translated most of their menus (get a free meal for that, usually) for them and often get a phone call "Hey, got any room?" But that's _because_ they know we do care about playing fair with them, as much as anything, I'm sure.

[Coco]

Here's another one I hadn't given a second thought to til "the great debate" started.  We often have people with children under 7 who wouldn't eat most of the dishes on offer.  I usually offer to do a burger and chips or chicken and chips and ice cream for the little ones.  Am I a restaurant?  Technically yes, but what (English) 4 year old is going to eat beef bourgignon and gratin dauphinois followed by chocolate/cointreau mousse?

[Alan]

I must say coco, i do the same for children. i tend to ask if the child will eat the food and if not then i tend to offer chicken without any sauce or maybe pasta. But having said that if i do have guests in i would normally be cooking two meals anyway as we have children 6 and 7 who would not eat fancy food that i would normally be preparing for us and the guests

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Coco asks/says:-

We often have people with children under 7 who wouldn't eat most of the dishes on offer. 

Interesting... we don't, but then we don't really target a British clientèle, honestly, except through Sawday, and of course the AA Guide (which has never brought us one person). Also, although we do accept young children, our rooms aren't really set up for family occupancy and so we tend not to have too many families with small children, and most are French.

So, we can't really say "as a rule" we do this, every case is different and we decide what to do on the basis of what the parents say.

I usually offer to do a burger and chips or chicken and chips and ice cream for the little ones. 

I don't think we'd ever do that. But maybe, if we had hordes of British families, we might. I honestly don't know. At the moment, we TRY to do what Alan does, which is to do the same food for both. As I said, nearly all our children are French (I'm tempted to say "thank heavens" if Coco is right about the reluctance of British kids to eat what is put before them) and as I already make a point of asking guests what their dietary requirements are, it's relatively easy to extend that to their children. So if the parents say "Oh our children are well brought up, they try everything" - an answer we nearly always get - then I don't feel I need to do a separate main course. However, I WILL plan a meal that is designed not to test them too far . For example, I'd not do the highly spiced Moroccan Shepherds Pie we did last night, but maybe a braised pork roast, or chicken in the Romertopf.

If on the other hand, the parents were to say that the children were a little difficult, I have a stand-by that I often make under those circumstances!! I do Lasagne al Forno, or another pasta dish. It's a sweat to do, but is worth it to see their faces. In high summer, we often do a barbecue, and if I'm doing magret de Canard (I often do),  I'd have little hesitation about doing it even for British children as well. 

So that's our way of dealing with it. We still try to keep to the principle of one menu, but remaining realistic and flexible. I don't think I'd expect a british child to be very happy about raw ham as a starter, no matter how good it is, so I'd either plan a terrine that day, or have a slice of "jambon blanc" and tomato in reserve.

what (English) 4 year old is going to eat beef bourgignon and gratin dauphinois followed by chocolate/cointreau mousse?

I'd make the mousse without the cointreau for once, and maybe offer ham with the gratin. But only because we don't often have many young british children. So please don't think I'm criticising in any way.

[Coco]

Mmmmm, I find your comments quite interesting too Ian.  You don't gt many children because you don't target that area?  I suppose because we don't have any kids ourselves it never even occured to me to cater for children, either with food or accommodation.  We have two en-suite double bedrooms.  However, within a week of opening I had to quickly adapt as every single French and Dutch enquiry I received asked if we could take their children.  So, a quick visit to the supermarket to buy a blow-up mattress and a travel cot and now we can offer a "family" room too.  From next month we will have a proper family suite (if I ever let my husband out of th attic, where I am currently locking him each morning until he's completed the conversion! )

I stipulated that English (sorry British) kids wouldn't eat beef bourgignon or gratin dauphinois because it's more or less a foregone conclusion.  However, most of our family bookings are French families and they are just as grateful for the steak haché option.  I don't bother with a starter for children that young because they don't usually want it, or don't have the staying power at the table to eat at the relaxed pace we choose.  So I usually serve their main during our starter and the dessert during our main and then off they toddle.

I don't think I would compromise the cointreau or kirsch in the mousse (I get too many compliments) just because there was a child present.  I have done so in the past and it is still too rich for such young children. A scoop of vanilla ice cream goes down a lot better!

Ian, you say you do the same as Alan, but I believe that Alan was saying he does the same as me, he offers chicken for the children but still cooks two separate meals because his own young children wouldn't eat what he serves for his guests.

So the question still remains..... by doing this would a French official class me as being acceptable within the bounds of flexibility, or am I a restaurant?

[winterbunny]

Knowing how the French like us to accommodate children, I find it very difficult to believe that an official wouldn't turn a blind eye. 

I always ask if the kids will eat 'normal' food as I don't do special childrens meals (they can go to a restaurant where special childrens meals are on offer) . Mostly though their tummies can't cope with a huge meal so they have a smaller version of the main course and the pud (they love home made puds) or ice cream or fruit.  I muse that is not offering something still choice, they don't get the wine either.  One little one didn't eat anything with 'texture', including meat, vegetables and fruit and juice with bits in it etc.  I did her a small individual macaroni cheese and chips! (not very balanced I know, but she was a lovely little thing) Now, I didn't charge for that meal, so presumably fell foul somewhere.  Thinking about it my crimes are even more heinous and when we've had 2 small ones I've only charged for one meal which they split between them.

And at the other end of the scale, what about the family granny that has to have the food a bit bland and mushy. 

Buns 

[Quillan]

I am placing my response to a couple of things here because to place them in the other threads would just continue to hijack them.

 

I am in total disagreement with a certain amount of what Ian has said (sorry Ian) in as much as these may be the rules as applied to members of Gite de France to Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes but not necessarily to non members.

 

I can’t be bothered to trawl back and find the person to thank for locating the inforeg rules again as my old links have long gone (I got them from somebody here as well a long time back). I did wonder if they could give a UL to the kitchen hygiene stuff as well please.

 

I went yesterday to Carcassonne and took some time to visit the prefecture and took these documents with me and here is what I learn’t.

 

In our prefecture they are tightening up on CDH as I have mentioned before and to be able to trade you must have been inspected by either GDF or Clévacances and will be graded with stars. You do not become and neither do you have to become a member of either of these two associations for the purpose of registering your CDS in the department.

 

The documents I have posted are ONLY for the Paris region and they both VERY clearly state that there is no reference in French law as to the definition of what Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes really are. The prefecture can however create local laws which is what they have done in Paris. The documents have been drawn up with the help of GDF. Our prefecture at present does not have any rules/laws although they will do soon. Other prefectures at present may have the same or may have no intention of doing anything.

 

What Ian is quoting is GDF rules and not universal French law, they may also be local laws in his prefecture.

 

So this is how I understand it as told at my prefecture. If you join GDF you must, to stay a member, abide by their rules but there is no obligation to join GDF. If you do not already and have no intention of joining GDF then you should contact your prefecture and ask them what their rules are. If they have any my guess is they will be copied straight out of the GDF book or Clévancances depending on which one is the most popular in your prefecture (ours is the latter). The rules of both these associations are different although what the difference is I do not know as I do not have a copy of either yet.

 

I would strongly recommend you do contact your prefecture as ignorance is no excuse in English law and it’s certainly the same here in France.

[winterbunny]

Thank you for that, Quillan, it's a bit muddied and I suspect that not only are the departmental rules variable but also those of GdF in each region - have you had a look at the Gites thread on someone is watching you to see what is happening in Pas de Calais.

The hygiene regs are dealt with by the veterinary dept of each departement; you can locate your dept link from the link at the end of the inforeg fiche and some useful info at

http://www.finances.gouv.fr/DGCCRF/04_dossiers/concurrence/fichespro/27restauration.htm

I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that to qualify for GdF CdH we have to be a private residence and not a commercial inn/hotel.  It surely must be a nightmare to try to regulate what each private home offers as very few of us have the space or wherewithall to comply with restaurant regs, nor, I suggest are we in practice expected to do so.  In a lot of cases it would mean that TdH is no longer a viable activity.  Personally I am building a second small kitchen with access to our dining room which I can kit out to be more hygienic than our family kitchen, which although I try to keep scrupulous clean, does have a lot of traffic through it by the family, simply because of it's position in the house.  It's easy and practical enough for us to do this conversion, but not necessarily  for others to do the same. 

Of course my other suspicion is that if we are deemed to be a restaurant simply because we can't keep to the no choice rule, we then become a commercial premises and no longer qualify for GdF as a CdH - bit of a catch 22.  What I might do later on in the year when we are quieter is to collate all the info I have and pop along to our Vet services, chambre de commerce and GdF. It would be unsupportable if only GdF and Clevacances members had to comply with the rules and regs and others operating independantly could do as they please.  The inforeg fiche doesn't make this difference, and their rules apply to everyone.

My customers are important to me and I want to make their experience of France a pleasant memory, it would be a shame if some fairly petty rule meant that they went away feeling unwelcome simply because they want to be fed in a particular way and we had to say no.

Buns

 

[Quillan]

"I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that to qualify for GdF CdH we have to be a private residence and not a commercial inn/hotel."

I agree but I did think thats what Logis de France was for but I don't really know for sure.

"Of course my other suspicion is that if we are deemed to be a restaurant simply because we can't keep to the no choice rule"

Yes but then thats your choice. The French actually expect the straight meals with no choice I gues it's who you market your self at but then logic dictates that if you register with GDF then you will get more French than other nationalities and of course you would then have to drop the choice as you are a member of GDF and must abide by their rules. If you don't agree then don't join.

"The inforeg fiche doesn't make this difference, and their rules apply to everyone."

Yes but it's only for a particular area it is not for the all of France. You can use them as a guide line if you live somewhere else but as I said you really need to ask your own prefecture.

"My customers are important to me and I want to make their experience of France a pleasant memory, it would be a shame if some fairly petty rule meant that they went away feeling unwelcome simply because they want to be fed in a particular way and we had to say no."

Well I guess we all feel this way as well. However I can see why GDF wants to try an impose a standard, it's to make people experience what true France is all about and not an individuals interpretation if you see what I mean.

Tell you what all this bold and intalics I am getting like Ian.

[winterbunny]

[quote]"I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that to qualify for GdF CdH we have to be a private residence and not a commercial inn/hotel." I agree but I did think thats what Logis de France was...[/quote]

I absolutely see where you are coming from here; my only comment would be that GdF are very keen to have foreign tourists come to the area.  If they really intend to put us in a straight jacket on this, then either the foreign tourists will be discouraged, (a lot of them deliberately seek out non French CdH's because they are worried about language/food etc) or people like us will simply move away from GdF, who only bring in a small proportion of our business anyway.  Surely it would be a better move for them to review and be more flexible in their rules and bring more under their umbrella and so promote standards over a wider range of properties.

I feel our GdF rating is not so much for the business it's brings in (see above), but as much to try to demonstrate locally a certain integration into the community, I would rather remain within it's boundaries, but not if it means I lose business.  There are a large number locally who operate exactly as they please outside any organisation's constraints and have not yet made themselves known to the authorities.  This is their choice but it becomes untenable if the competition they offer means we lose business.

Buns

[mascamps.com]

I'm curious about one thing in all this discussion (and on 'tother thread).... We have one document from Ian which appears to be a law that does allow a French-style "menu" (ie one with choices) yet inforeg which states that a menu with choices is not allowed. However, does the inforeg document have the status of a law (or is it based on a legal document)?

When you get right down to it, a TdH meal is intended to be one where the guests are effectively treated as visiting friends or family; the difficulties that have arisen all seem to come from the various attempts that the French authorities (be they the government, GdF or whoever) have made at defining what makes it a "family" meal rather than a restaurant meal which has obviously created a lot of problems.

Taking the inforeg definition to bits:

1. TdH is an addon to accommodation is what it says.

OK, we take it as read that it's an addon to CdH, but it doesn't say that and it could be an addon to a gite or even hotel for instance (unless those are ruled out elsewhere in the document).

2. there is a single menu without choices made up of regional ingredients.

Clear enough re the menu ie a fixed price menu with no choices. Unfortunately the "no choices" part is illegal under assorted disability discrimination legislation (eg if you had a diabetic to stay you'd have to have a non-sugar option for them and don't forget the rarer form of diabeties which requires sugar so you can't just give everyone sugarfree). Regional ingredients would also be illegal as it effectively specifies French when it must specify European.

3. served at the family table (therefore it is not possible to have multiple tables in a separate room reserved for this purpose)

That actually does allow multiple tables as larger family gatherings obviously do use more than one table. What it doesn't allow is to have a separate dining room so if in the off season you eat in front of the TV but in high season you eat in a different room then you're breaking the rule. There's also the problem of what to do about families who just eat watching TV ie with no table at all.

4. capacity limited to that of the accommodation

So you can't have more than 15 guests to dinner. One minor issue with that is that children don't necessarily count as people so you probably could have more than 15 if a number of them were kids (not 100 teenagers obviously but certainly a few toddlers aren't going to count)

 

Arnold

[Quillan]

Arnold, the Inforeg document is for the Paris region only and are the rules they have set for people who wish to open and run a CDH and offer TDH. There are penalties should you not follow what they have asked you to do.

 

Some of the fines may be pursuable under general French law but this would be more along the hygiene route. As I said these rules/laws have been constructed with help from GDF as they are a government run organisation and seen by many as being the experts in these matters (rightly or wrongly). Each department has or will have, in the future, their own rules and regulations. This is why they refer you to your own department for hygiene rules as they differ across France and I have said you need to check.

 

As a member of GDF I can see where they are coming from, whether I agree with their approach is a different matter. What they are trying to put over to people staying in Chambres D’Hôtes is a feel of the local area, customs and eating habits. Giving people a pizza or beef burger is not exactly French, it’s an extreme example I know but it’s just to show a point. People who travel from abroad or even from other parts of France want to try the local cuisine and this is why GDF have these rules.

 

You talk of legal points with regards to the menu and the type of food served, the onus is on you to ask if there are any special needs because as the document says you must be able to cater for people with disabilities (well in Paris you do) and disabilities are not just a loss of leg or arm but include dietary disabilities as well. We currently have a guest who cannot eat wheat based produce so we must cater for them at breakfast and evening meals. By the way have you modified your establishment o take handicapped people in general? One just has to use ones common sense.

 

The other more logical point is that for those of us who do not have an Auberge with a commercial kitchen it is very difficult to offer a multiple choice menu, it’s difficult enough at times to just cook one meal. So to be told that one must offer just one meal is a gods send.

 

I see you run an Auberge, we have one near us that also has chambers but they run differently and come under the restaurant rules. They don’t offer TDH but people can eat in the restaurant part of the establishment which is different physically and legally from running TDH. They also charge extra for breakfast.

 

With regards to capacity of TDH, you can’t offer TDH to people who are not resident so I am not sure where you are on this one. You can’t take people off the street and give them TDH without accommodation. For the purpose of the document a child is equal to an adult. If you did do this then you are a restaurant regardless of if the people sit at one table or many.

 

The answer to you specific questions lay in a basic reply. Go and visit your prefecture and ask them what their rules are and abide by them. If you want to join GDF (although with your particular setup they might not accept you being an Auberge and all) then you must abide by their rules, if you don’t, fair enough don’t join.

 

By the way there is little or no point is shouting EU law at the French, they take what they want and dump the rest.

[mascamps.com]

So if the Paris inforeg is just for Paris (although I imagine that the other regions will have largely based their rules on the Paris region), where are they taking their "guidance" from ie is there some legal document that they've translated into plain-French in effect? What I'm getting at is that a lot of the recent debates are waffling on about various things (mostly the issue of choice in the menu) when what we need to refer to are the underlying laws.

Fair enough re the hygiene but then that too will have a specific law that the rules etc. are drawn from. Incidently, I had a look at the restaurant one and I don't really see any significant difficulties in a normal home kitchen meeting them.

I'm laughing at your example of the pizza and beef burger. Going by our local restaurants that is the local cuisine in our area. Seriously! OK, you will also get quiche offered but that's about it. We, quite laughably, have the most French menu of any place locally so far as we can see.

I hadn't read as far in the document as its disabilities section. That aspect should apply across France. We were lucky in that the previous owner had already setup a number of disabled access rooms and we've had a few moderately disabled people staying during the year so I guess the facilities are reasonably OK.

Believe me, it's not easy doing a multiple choice menu regardless of your facilities.

I've no problems re the limit of 15 on the accommodation per se and that you can't just feed people without having them take accommodation with you (although as you may have seen, there is a bit of a loophole in that aspect). What I was wondering was if the 15 included children and babies?

To be honest, we're debating as to whether it's best to run as a TdH or as, in effect, a hotel/restaurant. Strange as it may seem, we could, with a fairly small change, run as a CdH plus 2 gites (hence my intense interest in what the laws and rules actually say as opposed to what we all think they say).

I usually look at the European laws first basically because they're generally simpler to follow. However, in practice almost all of them are implented in specific French laws and when I try to use the European law here I generally quote the specific French law. For instance, although I've kept on at the business about "must be regional" (therefore meaning "must be French") being illegal under European law, it is also illegal under a number of French laws too; the difference is that the European law is more general and basically says (with a few limited exceptions) that any national legislation that reads "must be nationality X" must be read as though it said "must be a European national".

Having said that, I do see where GdF etc. are coming from in basically telling people that they can expect regional food in a TdH. What is a bit of a problem is that for us immigrants it's hard to know what "regional food" actually is when we see that the staple fare in all the local restaurants (except, ironically, us) is beef haché, quiche and pizza. It's even worse than that really as someone pointed out earlier - regardless of where you are in France, the restaurant menus are taken from Metro.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

PS... I think you're right about Logis de France being, essentially, the hotel equivalent to GdF. Unfortunately for the French hotel industry, whereas GdF are pretty good at marketing, LdF are absolutely dreadful.

 

Arnold

 

[Quillan]

"So if the Paris inforeg is just for Paris (although I imagine that the other regions will have largely based their rules on the Paris region), where are they taking their "guidance" from ie is there some legal document that they've translated into plain-French in effect? What I'm getting at is that a lot of the recent debates are waffling on about various things (mostly the issue of choice in the menu) when what we need to refer to are the underlying laws."

I think you must of missed it, as I said before, it's Gites De France. GDF rules are transposed )in the Paris case) in to local law (by that I mean prefecture) as it clearly states at the top of the document there is no national law for CDH and TDH.

You might find re the local grub that you come under cassolette or what ever it's called, we do. If some pillock from the UK can make it and get a certificate I am sure I can, pork banger, chicken wings and a tin of baked beans as far as I can see and loads of dippy bread.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Very deep sigh.

I just spent an hour answering this thread and Internet exploder ate the lot. GRRRR.

Sorry about by delay in replying - sometimes I actually have to DO table d'hôtes!

Quillan says.

(By the way Quillan, I've no probs if you disagree with me, and of course you must say so if you do! After all, that's what gives life to the Forum).

as these may be the rules as applied to members of Gite de France to Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes but not necessarily to non members.

No, Quillan, that's absolutely not the case. The definition that I posted of TdH comes from a Tourist Ministry document, not from a GdF document. In any case, as Buns says, it would be ludicrous for TdH to be defined one way for GdF and another for Clévacances and a third for anyone running CdH but NOT in either of these organisations. No these definitions are underwritten by the Ministry of Tourism.

BUT, I must admit that I somewhat oversimplified this, when I talked before, though without in any way misleading you. It is perfectly true that GdF DID sit down and hammer out these definitions of TdH, with "the man from the ministry" and with representatives of the traditional french food industry. They were hammered out with the twin objectives of allowing people to eat local food prepared by (originally) local farmers, on the one hand and to protect hotels and restaurants from (what they felt was) unfair competition on the other. However, don't forget that GdF IS a quango, and therefore it's reasonable that when the Tourist ministry goes to look for a definition of TdH, it will go to the work of its tame quango, and that's what happened here. But I repeat and will go on repeating, the definition I quoted, was from a document issued by the Ministry of Tourism.

However, there's no point in looking for a law as such, with definitions and penalties laid out for infraction. It doesn't exist, as you say. From what I understand of reading the dense text in french parliamentary web pages, there have been several discussions of this and the minister has promised to put legislation before the house. However, it hasn't happened yet, and between the intention to do so, and the completion of stages 1)the law is voted 2) it is passed as being acceptable by the constitutional committee 3) a decret d'application is issued, there is a a lot of water. However the definition of TdH DOES exist, independantly of GdF and even though GdF was instrumental in drawing them up. So, even if nation wide LAWS don't exist, the definition does. Any prefect is free to act as if such definitions DID have the weight of law, or to create byelaws that do enact them, which is what has happened in Paris and what may be happening elsewhere.

So although the "Loi machin" defining Table d'hote and other paraprofessional tourist activities hasn't been proposed, passed, or applied, nevertheless definitions as I have already posted do most certainly exist and the consequences of non conformity are (as I posted) stated. So, sorry Quillan, but you're plumb mistaken in thinking that they only apply to GdF. They apply industry wide, though it could perfectly well be true that no one apart from GdF makes any effort to do anything about imposing them.

Coming now to this:-

The documents I have posted are ONLY for the Paris region and they both VERY clearly state that there is no reference in French law as to the definition of what Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes really are. The prefecture can however create local laws which is what they have done in Paris.

At the same time, this is both true and misleading. The legislation is only in place in Paris, but they draw on a definition that is created by the Ministry. So the gloss that Paris gives to explain exactly what is meant by one menu, may only be legally binding - in terms of laid down penalties - there, but is quite clearly taken from, and implied in the definitions - Arnold's desperate attempts to redefine french words to suit his own wishes notwithstanding. What the Paris document does is to explain in words of one syllable for hair splitters, how the nationally relevant definitions are meant to be understood.

I am surprised to see you bringing up this question of local food again. GdF in their publicity says to people that they could expect to find it, but both Miki and I have explained that there's absolutely NOTHING in the GdF rules to say that it must be. And even it it were, it would be perfectly valid to use local ingredients in any way you like. So if I choose to buy a local chicken and then cook it as a tandoori, that's entirely within the rules. So please, I BEG of you don't keep on harping on this non existent constraint just to argue against it!!

I'll briefly deal with Arnold's point about European Legislation. He's not right (see my next post), but even if he were that's almost entirely irrelevant. It's on a par with other famous last words. "I have right of way". "Amanita Phalliodes doesn't grow in the open". "They never attack humans". If he wants to take on the entire weight of French bureacracy and tell them that they have no right to say this, that or the other, because European legislation won't allow it, that's his affair. But I feel it's grossly irreponsible to suggest to the rest of us that we should offer several alternative menus, because of European anti-discriminatory legislation.

And Arnold.-  "Une seule table", "un seul menu". MEANS "Only one table" "only one meal". Wriggle all you like, all the evidence is that that's what's meant and that definition is what you can expect to be considered fair by the local bureaucracy.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi again.

Before getting down to Cocos' comments, there one brief thing I want to say to Arnold and his comments about European Antidiscriminatory legislation.

Your thinking is - once again - hotel thinking. They don't apply to us who run CdH. In most of the texts that do discuss CdH, we are considered to be _private_ houses. That's NOT true for you, of course. So, - I don't know how to say this more politely - I do wish you wouldn't bring YOUR hotel type thinking to bear on OUR situation in CdH, because in many respects we're on different sides of the fence.

Take this analogy. Say I invite you and your family to eat with me, I am not obliged - by European law - to cater for your hypothetical coeliac daughter, your hypothetical diabetic wife, or your hypothetical muslim son-in-law. (My personal rules of politeness might make me want to provide a meal they can all eat, but there's NO obligation to do so). And TdH is treated exactly the same way. Fundamentally, the rules/definitions of TdH say that it is deemed to be people who pay to join our family style meal, (and the definitions say, "that means one table one meal, and one single service").  So legislation applying to meals offered to the public simply don't apply.

 

[mascamps.com]

I suspect that the longer than usual delays in everyone getting back re this thread are a good sign ie that we've all been fairly busy over the weekend!

Ian, I think that the difficulties that we're all having is that nobody has yet (that I know of) put up a set of documents (or links or whatever) for the relevant laws/rules/whatever. I take your point that GdF as being quasi-governmental will, in effect, be influencing the laws/rules that are generally applicable but what everyone here needs is the definitive set of laws/rules/guidelines; I think you are one of the people most likely to be able to come up with a complete set.

Ian, I am NOT redefining words. The definition from Larousse that I quoted earlier clearly shows that the usual meaning of the word "menu" in French allows for multiple choices but a single price. If this were not the case, then the supplementary section on the inforeg document (excluding choice in any course) would not be required. As I said earlier, the original rule that you quoted does allow choice; what has presumably happened is that either subsequently or somewhere within the document they limit the "menu" to exclude the possibility of choice.

I never said that you can use European law to offer choice to everyone. What I said was that we are required by European and French law to offer choice in specific instances relating to disability. For instance, if someone is a vegetarian by choice then they can't require you to offer them a vegetarian option on your menu. However, if someone was vegeterian due to some "disability" then not only could you offer them a choice but you would be required to do so (I just use the vegetarian option as an example, whether or not there is such a disease, I don't know).

I take your point re "une seule table". However, the fact is that, as a family, we don't actually eat at one table and haven't for quite some time (ie it predates our arrival here).

Basically what I'm saying is that the various documents quoted are trying to define what a "family meal" is and that's why we all have problems with various aspects of it - it's quite simply difficult to define what a "family meal" actually is, before you even consider that British and French family customs may be different. As I say, even when we eat as a family, we have choices on our "menu" yet doing so doesn't make us a restaurant.

 

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

Ian, I'm not bringing hotel thinking to the arguement. However, I do take your point about the anti-discrimination legislation possibly not requiring you to offer a diabetic choice (for instance) in a TdH as it's a "family meal". However, the rule barring you from offering a choice could not be enforced against you if you chose to offer a choice to said diabetic. As I said in the previous comment which crossed your post, this reasoning couldn't be extended to allow you to offer a vegetarian choice, unless someone had some disease which forced them to be vegetarian.

As I said before also, I am in the unusual position of having an option of being either in the hotel camp or in the CdH camp which is why I'm especially interested in the rules. For this reason, I'm not bringing "hotel thinking" to the debate (or at least trying not to).

Since, as you point out, the rules are largely set by a quasi-government organisation (ie GdF) if not the govenment themselves (ie directly by the Ministry of Tourism), the various European and French anti-discrimination laws apply to the laws and rules that they set. This means, as I understand it, that the no-choice menu is an illegal rule in the specific instance of disabilities (eg diabetes) and that the regional cooking rule is also illegal. This isn't "hotel thinking", it is legal thinking. The difference is that a TdH couldn't be required to offer a choice and couldn't be required to offer a European menu but rather that they can't be barred from offering both.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

At last I can get to Coco's points, whew.

You ask:-

You don't get many children because you don't target that area? 

I don't know, to be honest. I mustn't mislead you and say we NEVER get any, but honestly, we don't get much demand. That may be because of the facilities we have and/or don't have, or because of what the guides say, or don't say, or just because this area isn't really that popular with families with small children. That said, as for converting demand to bookings, I don't think more than one or two families with children a year who call us don't book, if we've got space for them. But for whatever reason, I'd say that less than 10% of our business,  maybe even less than 5% is of families with children. We only have one single room that is large enough to accommodate more than two people, no matter what age. While we have a double and twin upstairs, which is perfectly suitable for a family of four, it does work out a bit more expensive than a single room with a double and two singles, or a single suite. And parents might have some reluctance about putting a 3 y.o. and a 5 y.o. in a room on their own. So, by the nature of the house we converted, we CAN'T target families with small children and in fact I don't really know what I would actually DO - in terms of publicity - if I did want to.

However, within a week of opening I had to quickly adapt as every single French and Dutch enquiry I received asked if we could take their children.  So, a quick visit to the supermarket to buy a blow-up mattress and a travel cot and now we can offer a "family" room too. 

That's amazing. We do HAVE a cot, and maybe use it once or twice a year. But again, that's only really do-able in one room.

I don't think I would compromise the cointreau or kirsch in the mousse (I get too many compliments) just because there was a child present.  I have done so in the past and it is still too rich for such young children. A scoop of vanilla ice cream goes down a lot better!

Grin!!! I thought that might get a rise . It's fascinating to see what you do, though, as it's so widely different from us. We're very used, in this area, to see the entire family out for a long-drawn out Sunday lunch, with everyone from great-granny to the youngest, staying at table till gone 4pm. The littlies usually have a colouring book or similar, but generally, they are more or less at table throughout the time. All that to say that I assumed it was the norm, and so that's what WE do. OK, it all depends upon the ages. Kids are free to come and go, when we eat under the Auvent, inside, we're a little more directive as we eat in our sitting room, and can't really have the kids throwing food over the persian carpet! But we can put a cartoon on the TV for them which tends to make everyone happy.  As for the food, we do such a wide variety of dishes, that if we have kiddies, I simply tend to plan a meal that they will enjoy with minimal changes - undressed salad, for example, or a non alcoholic pud. But honestly, we get so little demand that it's honestly not an issue.

Ian, you say you do the same as Alan, but I believe that Alan was saying he does the same as me, he offers chicken for the children but still cooks two separate meals because his own young children wouldn't eat what he serves for his guests.

I may have misread/misunderstood his comments, I took him to mean that he tried to see if the kids would eat the same as the parents, making minimal changes if possible. That's what I meant to say I more or less do. But, as I said above, we do so MANY different dishes, on a more or less regular basis, that we can always plan a meal that will suit just about every one. 

In the store cupboard (cellar actually) we have about 12 home made soups in jars. Leek and potato, split pea, hoppin john, chestnut and apple, crecy (carrot and potato), cepe consommé, cream of mushroom, cajun 15 bean, french onion, palestine (fartichoke) and cream of tomato. Ok, eleven. Well, no matter what the diet, ONE of these will be fine. Apart from our stand-bys of home made tins of terrine, and charcuterie, I counted recently (I'm working on putting up our favourite recipes on our web site) that we do about 25 different starters more or less regularly, ranging from a simple tomato salad to imam bayeldi and risotto milanese, and passing through quiches, guacamole and so on. Again, no matter WHAT people like or dislike, I can find something to please, without the others feeling deprived. So it is for the main course, and the cheeses. As for puds, we always have about three home made ice creams in stock, as well as the magnificent Thiriet vanilla, which is better than I can make and which again make a very suitable fall back if I'm a bit worried as to whether little Aurelie would want to eat my Clafoutis (with loads of alcohol in it) or the soupe de fraises (just coming into season).  So, not trying to brag (it was my job) it is dead easy for us to plan a meal that everyone from about 6 upwards will eat. And yes, we DO have elderly grannies, and great grannies, who want fairly simple food. No probs. L&P soup, quiche lorraine, salt baked magret with roasted potato cubes and a green salad, cheeses and strawberry ice cream. They eat half portions of that, and toddle off to bed as happy as Larry!

Of course, one very important thing about what we do here, which is probably different from you, is that we NEVER do a meal "au pif". We make it very clear in our pub, that we don't do meals every day and that they must be ordered in advance. So I am never faced with the unexpected, or practically never.  We're very lucky, in that there's an Auberge in the village about 100 yards from us, so people can always eat without clambering back into their car again.  All that, means that we simple don't ever feel the need to do a separate menu. (That said, we WILL be feeding a vegetarian (no fish either) in July, and will probably do HER a special main dish). 

So the question still remains..... by doing this would a French official class me as being acceptable within the bounds of flexibility, or am I a restaurant?

And my answer (my own opinion, which is not to be considered as more than that rather than that of someone charged with investigating abuses for Gites de France), would be that as long as you aren't regularly offering more than one menu, but rather seeking to adapt your food to the varying needs of your clients, you're OK. But no doubt, if you were to step on some influential toes somewhere and/or fall foul of a persnicketty official, you might be in some trouble if you cooked more than one main course on a regular basis.

Hope that helps.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Groan, Arnold...

you said

 Ian, I'm not bringing hotel thinking to the arguement.

You may not think you are, but sadly, your whole way of thinking is that of someone offering meals./service to the public. But that's not what happens in a CdH. In effect, we "invite" the people sleeping in our few rooms to share our meal. They pay, sure, but they aren't the public.

However, the rule barring you from offering a choice could not be enforced against you if you chose to offer a choice to said diabetic.

As I've said before, YOU try telling the petty official whose restaurateur brother is grumbling about unfair competition, that he "can't enforce" these rules. If only we could get something definite in writing from our local prefecture/service des comsommateurs (who shouldn't _really_ be involved either, afaiac) about what they consider to be the limits, it would be wonderful, but they won't of course, in case we ever quote it back! In the meantime, the best we can do is to take a pretty conservative view of the rules, and then apply them with flexibility.

[mascamps.com]

Likewise... "groan, Ian".

I was thinking about what you'd said earlier. It's not hotel thinking per se but that in my previous life the various rules & laws applied to me on a commercial basis. I genuinely am attempting to think TdH style though as it may be that's what we will be this time next year.

Having said that, I'm not entirely sure that the disability discrimination laws don't apply to a TdH. I fully agree the principle of it being essentially a "family meal" but for a bigger (and paying) family. However, due to the payment aspect, I suspect that you can't ignore all the "restaurant" laws, some of which will address aspects of disability.

It is definitely getting to be a bit of a minefield as there certainly appear to be quite wide areas where laws/rules aimed at TdH have, to some extent, fallen behind the times in respect of other laws. We've largely just touched on "normal" laws in this discussion but throw something like human rights into the pot and it's clear that they need to revisit the definition and legislation of TdH - just at first thought, restricting the menu would appear to be infringing her right to free expression. No, no, no I don't want to get into a debate/argument on that one!!

One clarification: legally the people you "invite" are very definitely the public. Give some awkward American food poisoning and you'll very quickly find out that he/she definitely didn't fall into the category of friend or family as the legal action starts against you.

However, the rule barring you from offering a choice could not be enforced against you if you chose to offer a choice to said diabetic.

As I've said before, YOU try telling the petty official whose restaurateur brother is grumbling about unfair competition, that he "can't enforce" these rules. If only we could get something definite in writing from our local prefecture/service des comsommateurs (who shouldn't _really_ be involved either, afaiac) about what they consider to be the limits, it would be wonderful, but they won't of course, in case we ever quote it back! In the meantime, the best we can do is to take a pretty conservative view of the rules, and then apply them with flexibility.

I fully agree with you. It mightn't seem like it, but I do agree with you sometimes

 

 

Arnold

 

[BJSLIV]

This article from L'express gives a French view on the explosion in the number of Chambres D'hote. http://www.lexpress.fr/voyage/bonsplans/dossier/maisonhote/dossier.asp

It also adds a new twist to the regulations as to what may be served.

La table d'hôte aussi est soumise à des réglementations très strictes: il faut que le repas soit pris à la même table que la famille, qu'il n'y ait pas plus de clients que l'hôte ne peut en héberger, que le menu soit unique, qu'il soit fabriqué avec des produits locaux n'ayant subi aucune industrialisation. «Mais on a vu des propriétaires proposer du foie gras acheté au magasin du coin, raconte Pascale Pinaud. Et ça, c'est susceptible de requalification en hôtellerie-restauration.»

So you had better put that tin opener away and send back your Metro card PDQ