B&B when to register

[Jerome]

Hi,

I have asked this qustion in the health thread and Danny kindly offered two replies but was not sure of the legal answer. Quillan said I should look on the B&B thread as I may find it here but I haven't been able to find the answer to this question.

I have seen a post by Eslier (a Moderator) that quotes 23,000 euros or the income from the B&B being over 50% of your  income will mean one has to register the business.

I spotted a few who are operating B&B's in France on here and saw that one person was a moderator on here and thought he/she should know so asked them but they offered me this part of the Forum. I had hoped that someone could offer the legality of what one should do please.

I have tried to search but did not know where to start but in a French mag yesterday I saw an article about someone in the Lot describing her little B&B who said that if she offered evening melas or lunches or snacks even, she was obliged to register, so she did not offer meals.I thought that one of the Mods with a business such as this, would be knowledgable on the subject but if they cannot help and as I said before, the Forum I work with on a differnet matter altogether, are the the ones who invariably know the answers. Sorry if that is not the case here.

Here is what I asked on the health thread and Danny's kind reply. Any further help would be appreciated.

[quote]Jerome,

it seems to me, having done lots of reading (and I did find many threads relating to registration at the C de C - search for "commerce" in the gites and in the chabres d'hotes sections) that this question of obligation to register is not clear enough. The official texts that are there are still not adhered to in many parts of France. This leads to conflicting advice from many professionals and fonctionnaires. It is a grey area but because it is not well regulated people do all sorts of things and no one seems to care. There are some people with all sorts of activities going on who earn a lot of money and are not registered as a business and therefore do not pay any social charges at all. They take lots of earnings in cash and foreign cheques and only declare miniscule amounts for tax purposes.

Basically, a lot of people do not register as a business because they don't want to, regardless of any official obligations. The problem is that there is no enforcement of statutes in place and they can get away with it.

I think that until there is very clear policy in this matter and that any obligations are stictly enforced, people will continue not to register their gite/b&b activities as a business. The current issue about healthcare coverage shows just how complicated the whole business is and how difficult it can be to do joined up government. Things are going to have to change... and it might get messy( messier?)

Danny [/quote]

My post

Thank you again Danny, yes I too have read as much as I can on this subject but after reading about it all on this thread, I just thought that as Quillan is a Moderator, then by his position I simply thought he would know exactly what the rules were. I am on another Forum  where the Moderators are all quite expert at the subject matter of the Forum and I thought that would be the case on this one ?

Sorry if I am wrong about this but as he/she is actually running what seems to be a succesful B&B probably (possibly) turning over enough to make it his superior income, then they would know the precise answer, wouldn't they ? Sorry if that assumption is wrong but either way, ought there to be an answer?

I have found Eslier now and see he is a Moderator as well and it was he that posted that it was indeed obligatory.

  

[Clair]

Jerome,

a Google search has brought up the following official texts which should give you a starting point (assuming you read French)

[quote]OUVERTURE ET EXPLOITATION DE CHAMBRES D’HÔTES

1. Immatriculation de l’habitant/exploitant

Le ministre délégué au tourisme a rappelé que l’immatriculation des loueurs de chambres d’hôtes devait tenir compte, d’une part, du statut de l’exploitant et, d’autre part, de la nature habituelle ou non de l’activité (réponse ministérielle Joissains-Masini, JOAN 6 février 2007, question n° 113020). Au regard de la diversité des statuts des loueurs de ce type d’hébergement, cette inscription n’est pas systématique.

• - soit l’exploitant exerce l’activité de façon habituelle avec recherche de profits et en font profession, auquel cas il doit être inscrit au registre du commerce ;
• - soit il exerce cette activité de façon accessoire, en complément d’une activité professionnelle habituelle qui n’entre pas dans le champ des dispositions précitées du code de commerce

• - soit il exerce cette activité en complément d’une activité agricole et sont, à ce titre, soumis à des dispositions particulières.

source: http://www.inforeg.ccip.fr/fiches/pdf/chambres_hote.pdf (updated 06/08/07)[/quote]

[quote]De nouvelles règles pour les chambres d’hôtes

Les

exploitants de chambres d’hôtes ont jusqu’au 31 décembre 2007 pour

effectuer la déclaration de leur activité en mairie et se conformer aux

prescriptions d’un nouveau décret.

Dorénavant, toute personne qui offre à la location une

ou plusieurs chambres meublées situées chez l’habitant pour accueillir

des touristes doit en faire la déclaration préalable, avec accusé de

réception, auprès de la mairie du lieu de l’habitation, par voie

électronique, lettre recommandée ou dépôt en mairie.

De nouvelles conditions de capacité et d’accueil

doivent être remplies. Ainsi, l’activité de location consiste en la

fourniture groupée de la nuitée et du petit déjeuner et est limitée au

maximum à cinq chambres pour une capacité d’accueil de quinze personnes

au plus.

Chaque chambre d’hôte doit donner accès à une salle de

bain et à un WC et être en conformité avec les réglementations en

vigueur dans les domaines de l’hygiène, de la sécurité et de la

salubrité. La location doit être assortie de la fourniture du linge de

maison. Le ménage et l’entretien des chambres et des sanitaires doivent

être assurés quotidiennement, et sans frais supplémentaires, par

l’exploitant.

Par ailleurs, si l’exploitant exerce l’activité de

façon habituelle avec recherche de profits et en fait profession, il

doit être inscrit au registre du commerce. Si cette activité est

exercée en complément d’une activité agricole, elle est soumise à des

dispositions particulières.

Décret n° 2007-1173 du 3 août 2007, JO du 4 août 2007

Légifrance

source:http://pme.service-public.fr/actualites/breves/nouvelles-regles-pour-chambres-hotes.html[/quote]

[quote]Qui sont les loueurs en meublé non professionnels ?

Ce sont les personnes qui donnent en location meublée :

• soit des locaux spécialement destinés à la location ;
• soit une ou plusieurs pièces de leur habitation personnelle ;

Entrent notamment dans cette catégorie les loueurs de chambres d'hôtes,

de meublés de tourisme ou de gîtes ruraux (collectivités locales et

agriculteurs).Dans la majorité des cas, les locations en meublé

saisonnières sont considérées comme des locations non professionnelles

parce qu'elles concernent :

• des loueurs qui ne sont pas inscrits au registre du commerce et des sociétés (RCS) en qualité de loueurs en meublé ;
• des loueurs qui, bien qu'inscrits au registre du commerce, retirent
  de cette activité à la fois un montant de recettes inférieur ou égal à
  23 000 € TTC et moins de 50% de leur revenu global.

Les mises à disposition de caravanes, mobil-homes et habitations

légères de loisirs réalisées dans les terrains de camping sont

assimilées à la fourniture de logements meublés lorsque ces biens

constituent de véritables installations fixes.

source: http://www.impots.gouv.fr/

Quand devient-on loueur professionnel ?

Il faut être inscrit au registre du commerce et des sociétés (RCS) et avoir des recettes :

• soit supérieures à 23 000 €,

• soit inférieures à 23 000 € si les revenus tirés des meublés sont supérieurs ou égaux à 50% du revenu global.

Le montant des recettes brutes à prendre en considération s'entend du total des loyers courus taxes comprises.

Le seuil de 50% du revenu global est apprécié en comparant le

montant net des revenus de la location au total des revenus nets

catégoriels de l'ensemble du foyer fiscal (avant déduction des charges

du revenu global et des déficits des années antérieures) y compris les

revenus provenant de la location et, le cas échéant, ceux taxables à un

taux proportionnel.

source: http://www.impots.gouv.fr/[/quote]

[Jerome]

Thank you Clair,

So it is obvious that Eslier was indeed right and that some people operating B&B's  including the Moderator, Quillan, should not legally be with the CMU then ?

Thanks again.

Quand devient-on loueur professionnel ?

Il faut être inscrit au registre du commerce et des sociétés (RCS) et avoir des recettes :

• soit supérieures à 23 000 €,

• soit inférieures à 23 000 € si les revenus tirés des meublés sont supérieurs ou égaux à 50% du revenu global.

[Danny]

Jerome, I think that unless you know Quillan's personal circumstances, your comments may be misplaced.

There is nothing in place to enforce these regulations so unless that changes, not many people will really be bothered enough to register. Once a business is registered, social charges are levied from day one.

Danny

[Jerome]

I agree but was slightly concerned that she/he has not answered my question? Or am I wrong in that assumption that he/she would have done if there had been other circumstances?

If there is nothing in place, perhaps you or anyone else, could tell me why it is on the site that Clair kindly posted?

I don't know of any rules in France that are made in France but not a legal regulation? Maybe your last sentence is why people don't register.....?

Once a business is registered, social charges are levied from day one.

I do know now, from someone on a Forum that emailed me, that they were told by their local tax office, that they had to be registered and with a look that said, they would be wise to do it instantly. That quote Clair gave me, was one that a couple of others have also sent to me, including the person mentioned, who was told in no uncertain terms to register as the B&B was their business and their main income. I am not worried if it is Quillan's main income or not but my point was also,  that Moderators on Forums normally are the lynchpins of giving honest answers that help their members. Sorry if that is a liberty but that is how Forums I am on, seem to act and as he/she was a Mod and had what appears to be a very succesful B&B, then they would automatically know the rules and advise others seeking such advice.

[Jerome]

Sorry but I am staggered as to why Quillan hasn't answered this what I would think, a simple question himself. I have not been a member that long, so perhaps I am not yet in to the mode of this place but I am utterly amazed than a person who puts their site at the bottom of their posts for, I guess clients to see ? is a moderator and for some reason known to them, will not help a person who would like to know the answer to this ?  I suspect other members would also find it very useful to know the sitaution from a  person who, from their site, would appear to be very expert at B&B in France but  I suppose it is their perogative and no one should be expected to answer a question they don't want to, it just seems a shame not to share such obvious experience though. I shall just have to continue looking elsewhere.

[nimportequoi]

If you actually read the texte, it says that to be considered a loueur professional you must be registered at the chambre of commerce. It doesn't say that you have to register when your income is equal or more than 23,000€. You should register if B&B or gites are your principal income, but there is no official texte stating this obligation and it isn't widely enforced by the authorities either. However, due to the proposed changes in healthcover you may have to register to get state healthcare in future as CMU may no longer be available.

[Jerome]

I am sorry but your take on it is not how it is seen in more and more tax offices and Chambres de Commerce. I have taken this up in the last few days and to my mind now, I seem to think that you will struggle to find a tax office who, if you offer them the full story about your circumstances,  will not tell you that it is obligatory to register your B&B as your chiffres will be too high to rest as non professionelle, non prof are intended of course (or were, so I am told) to help the agricultural trade to earn a money on the side from the number of spare rooms or outbuildings. It has become an art form now for many Nationalities, not least the French themselves and that is why the 50% and 23,000 euro linits were brought in to being.