insurance for gite

[MKT]

I wonder if any of you can shed any light on this worrying insurance situation for me.

 

After 3 long years of preparation, we are about to open for our first season of renting our house out (short term holiday lets, so far English take-up only) and so, keen to be properly insured,  I went to see our insurance agent (AGF) to adjust the policy to cover the fact that the house is being rented out. After a few days she came back with a quote - €100 or so higher than I am currently paying, and assured me that ‘everything is covered, including legal protection’. However, on closer questioning about what would happen if the clients damage our property  (for example burn the house down or rip the expensive pool cover) she said that this is down to THEM and not our insurance (i.e. AGF)  and that we need to obtain from them, along with the security deposit an ‘attestation de responibilite civile’. She says this will be provided by the clients own UK insurers free of charge (seems a bit of an assumption) and that is ‘normal’ and that we are not covered for damage from clients without it. She says even if the people are only coming for 2 days, they must furnish us with this certificate each time. 

 

Having in the past stayed in many gites and houses, I have never been asked to provide this sort of thing and have grave doubts as to how this request will be received/achieved. I cannot see that holidaymakers are all going to want to ring their insurers and get this certificate in advance of the holiday and what about non-homeowners anyway? Does everybody in the party have to have it? The whole thing sounds wrong to me, and I wonder if the agent is just either being a bit awkward (perish the thought) or just covering AGF’s back in advance. I would like to know if any of you fellow gite owners do this or not and if not, where does one stand regarding major damage.

 

I have of course asked for a security deposit of £100 against damage and said in my terms and conditions (which they have to sign and return)  that this sum does not limit the clients liability to us. 

 

In the situation outlined by AGF yesterday however, if there was a fire and the gendarmes determined that it was the fault of the clients, I would have no leg to stand on – according to her I would not be insured and without this attestation I could not claim from the clients insurance. Clearly, the £100 is going to be neither here nor there! Am I the only person in this situation? Do the rest of you ask for such an attestation? And do you get it?

 

I hope someone can help or shed some light on this matter, it cost me a nights sleep last night and I am not sure where to turn for clarification.

Many thanks in advance

Maria

[passiflora]

Hi Maria

This seems to be a bit of a problem, and I'm not sure how many people realise it exists.  We only discovered it because we bought our gites as a going concern, and were able to take over the previous owner's insurance (we were with the same company for our main house anyway). 

Like you, I was never asked for an attestation in the days when we hired gites ourselves, and I have never come across anyone else asking for one either, French or English.

We are insured with Mutuelle de Poitiers and to get round the problem we have an endorsement "Renonciation contre les occupants" which effectively negates this provision (at least I hope it does!).  Basically it says that the owner has renounced his right to claim off the locataires, so the insurance will waive its right to do the same in return.  It was explained that this clause is specifically designed for this situation.

It may be be adds further to the premium (I don't have a quote without it), but the amount involved is going to be a lot less than the hassle involved in getting attestations from everyone.

It may be that AGF will do it if you ask them, otherwise you may have to shop around.

Philip

(standing in for Carole)

[SC]

In fact most French gite websites have a reference in the conditions to damage by the guests being the responsibility of the guest's insurer, something similar to this:

Assurances : Le locataire est responsable de tous les dommages survenant de son fait. Il aura l'obligation de souscrire un contrat d'assurance confirmant qu'il bénéficie de garanties dîtes " VILLEGIATURES ". Il lui appartiendra de prendre l'initiative de compléter son assurance si besoin. Le propriétaire décline toute responsabilité à ce sujet ainsi que pour les recours que les assureurs pourraient éventuellement exercer à l'encontre du propriétaire.

Some conditions state that it must be presented to the proprietor on arrival but I think that French owners who let to British holidaymakers don't expect them to have cover.

If you check your own normal (French) house insurance, more than likely it will cover you for accidental damage to property that you've rented in the same way that it covers your children if they cause damage at school etc.

sc

[MKT]

Yes, Thankyou both of you.

There seems to be a bit of confusion... I am not looking to be insured whilst I am staying in someones Gite, I am looking for MY clients to be insured while they are staying in mine since my insurance wont pay out (seemingly) if they damage anything, even burn the hosue down, if its deemed to be their fault.

As Sc points out, french visitors will have the cover anyway, but I am renting to english clients who do NOT have this cover.

My problem remains the same - how do I insure against the visitors wrecking the place?

The impression given by this forum is that the market is full of people renting out gites - what do you all do about this?

Maria

[passiflora]

Maria

If you read Philip's post carefully it tells you exactly that you can get insurance for this and we have done so.

 

 

[MKT]

Thanks Carole and Philip - sorry, I should have explained that I HAD read your post carefully and indeed suggested this as a solution to AGF but they say this does not solve the problem - they say this clause is to cover you against damage from clients, for sure, and is already in the contract infact as i had said it was a gite when i asked for the quote, but the problem is if there is a serious incident - the example she gave was a death (yikes) or a fire, the police would be involved and if they decide it was the guests fault (as opposed to negligence on my part) then our own insurance would not pay out and we would have to claim from the guests insurance. (hence the need to have an attestation from them that they have such insurance)

Clearly this is a serious matter and i find it incredible that you and I seem to be the only people aware of it/bothered. Like all insurances, I am sure AGF would do anything they could not to pay out, but it is precisely in the event of a major incident like a fire that one would need to be reimbursed from somewhere. 

I do not know where to go from here - there must be other gite owners on here - what do any of the rest of you do about this?

sorry if i gave the impression i hadnt read your answer properly

Maria

[CatherineS2]

Maria,

I too was very concerned by your post and have investigated the subject with my insurer.

I have a "Domifacile" policy with Aviva, specifically for second home owners who also let the property as a gite.

I rang my agent and asked him what would happen if for example one of my guests burnt the house down. He confirmed that yes Aviva would pay me for the damage, but that they would then in turn claim against the guests' house insurance, which would cover them for public liability as standard. When I told him that most of my guests are British, and that I very much doubt that their house insurance would cover them for damage done to another property in a different country, he told me that I ought to ensure that they do have adequate cover. He did not actually come out and say that Aviva would not actually pay me if they in turn could not claim from the guests' insurance, but he did indicate that it would make things "very complicated".

I then checked my Annual Travel insurance policy, and note that I am covered for up to £2,000.000 for Personal Liability which indemnifies me in respect of my "legal liability arising from accidental bodily injury to third parties or accidental loss of or damage to third party property" - which I presume would cover me if I were to set fire to someone else's gite while staying there on holiday...

So I think that is the answer - as gite owners we ought to ensure that our guests have taken out proper travel insurance which includes personal liability, to cover them for any damage they do to our property. Until now, the rental contract which I get my guests to sign states that I "strongly recommend" that they take out adequate travel insurance to cover them in case they have to cancel at the last minute. I am going to change the wording to state that they "must" take out insurance which includes adequate personal liability cover....

[Teamedup]

What an excellant thread. I know that our french home insurance covers us for such things, but as you have said british holiday makers probably will not have such third party cover with their home insurance, therefore would need insurance.

I cannot help but wonder what Gites de France's recommendation/policy is on this.

[CJJL<HR>Si jeunesse savait! Si vieillesse pouvait...]

In view of the lack of clarity on the insurance regarding UK based visitors, I have now amended my "Terms". as follows:

"Insurance

Under French law, the Client can be held responsible for any damage (flood, fire etc...) at the Property (art. 1732 of the French Code Civil). Therefore, the Client MUST ensure every person in the party is covered by a comprehensive insurance policy, particularly with regards to public and third-party liability, since the Owner's insurance does not cover these risks.

We strongly advise every member of the party to have full cover for the party's personal belongings as well as cancellation cover and breakdown insurance if on a self drive holiday."

I have also emailed all my UK bookings for this summer and attached an amended copy with the following tetxt to explain the amendment:

"We have been asked by our insurers to amend the insurance section of our "Terms & Conditions".

I attach an updated file for your attention.

In France, a household insurance cover includes a "holiday" section, which extends the home cover to a holiday rental property. This ensures that the client's insurance covers any major damage (flood, fire and such like) to the property during the rental period, as the owner's insurance will not cover these risks if caused by a third party.

The amendment we have been asked to make requires all clients to check that these risks are covered by their own insurance (household or travel), generally under "public and third party liability" and to make arrangements as necessary.

Please do contact me if you have any question regarding this.

Best regards"

I will enclose the same updated "Terms" when I confirm reception of the final payment before their arrival.

[MKT]

Well I am relived to learn it is not just me, or a difficult insurance agent – thankyou for your responses.

 

As a first step I too shall be changing my terms and conditions to say that clients must have insurance including third party liability, but I still think we need to sort the legal side of this out because in the event of the worst happening, the fact that I have said they must have insurance and even the fact that they have signed those conditions will not help if at the end of the day, they just haven’t taken it or aren’t covered.

 

Legally it is bound to help that they signed such a contract but as to whether the money could actually be recovered from them – well, only if they have the money to start with I suppose. I mean its not watertight is it? the point of insurance is peace of mind (I thought)

 

None of this makes me feel very comfortable, but I am not sure there is anything to be done. I wish I could insure, even at a premium, against guests doing something ridiculous. It sounds as if I cannot.

Maria

[Adrienne and Frank]

Thank you for raising this issue. I visited our bank (Credit Mutuel) to find out how much more to insure our home to rent out as a gite periodically this summer. They quoted 18 Euros (!) but mentioned nothing about this clause.

However this story does remind me of the difference between french and english insurance. In France there is never an accident - it is always someones fault - this means the person who caused the "accident" will have to claim on their own insurance. This was demonstrated for a friend recently who tiled his own bathroom. The inspection panel tiles subsequently fell off, damaged an £8000 bath (all singing, jaccuzzi !) and he claimed for damage to it on his french insurance. He was asked who the artisan was as the insurance company would make a claim against him - there isn't one - so no claim - no compensation.

Shows just how confusing living over the water really is ! But I wouldn't change it for anything

Adrienne

www.gites-in-creuse.com

 

[Chris Head]

Nice website Adrienne and Frank, although it hasn't come up as a link http://gitesincreuse.makeswebsites.com/index.php , hows that?

The insurance issue is a big one. We had bad advice when we first came here, I'll bet a number of you would be suprised if you read through the small print on your contracts. We've now changed our insurer, taken what we consider to be correct advice and have accurate policies in place.

Regards, Chris

[vesubie]

Where would you recommend British holidaymakers  get appropriate insurance?

I have been looking at this as a holidaymaker. I live in France and am booking a gite on behalf of friends from England.

They need holiday insurance ("assurance villegiature") to cover themselves for fire, theft, water damage and public liability. Insurers here do not offer this insurance separately.

British travel insurance covers public liability but not (at least this is how it seems to me) the three types of damage. Am I right?

Thanks, David

[MKT]

well Chris, you say you now have accurate and correct insurance, so could you tell me how you have covered the risk of guests setting fire to your house and not having insurance themselves to cover them for this?

 

thanks

Maria

[Michelle28]

We will be wanting to rent out our property from about October.  Initially to friends on 'trial runs', hopefully leading up to something more profitable next year.  This issue of insurance is quite frightening.  We are thinking to rent through Brittany Ferries or Gites de France.  Where do they stand on this issue?  I will contact them myself but as its Sunday morning was just wondering if anyone had any information on the forum.

Thanks

Michelle

[Jo Taylor]

AFAIK letting agencies - the ones that do the whole package such as Brittany Ferries Holiday Homes and Country Cottages in France - include all relevant insurance in the package for their customers. I had this situation arise last year when a teenager blocked the fosse with tampons despite all the written and verbal cautions (Monsieur le Fosse Unblocker was leaping around the garden shouting  "Look, I've found some mice!!").

I was advised by their regional agent that I could put in a claim to the company (French Country Cottages) as it was too late for me to deduct from their deposit on leaving - as is the nature of these problems it surfaced (I use the word carefully...) only a few days later when the current occupants were two rather too elderly ladies who would not have required the said items. Didn't actually put in the claim, as I was only charged €20 or so.

Yet another reason why we no longer bother with private lets, after 15 years of running our gite.

Another insurance-related reason - some friends wanted to let the gite. We said they'd have to book through the agency. Duly done, all paid for. Arriving next week, but then our friend had a stroke, can't drive for a month, and had to cancel. We've been paid, the agency's been paid, and friend will be reimbursed from the insurance. Had he made a private booking with us we'd only have had the deposit by now, which, being a friend, we would have refunded.

HTH

Jo

[Jo Taylor]

"Country Cottages in France" in the first line of my post above should read "French Country Cottages" -I just haven't got used to the name change!

Jo

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[quote]Well I am relived to learn it is not just me, or a difficult insurance agent – thankyou for your responses. As a first step I too sh[/quote]

Only just spotted this thread.

I ran a holiday rental company in France for 15 years and you have come up with the correct solution.

To recap (presuming I'm correct)

Your insurance company should allow a clause in the contract - 'Renonciation de Recours'. There should be little or no charge for this. Theoretically this should stop them persuing the client against claims to the policy. However it's nowhere near water tight and a firm 'MUST' have adequate personnal cover needs to be requested from clients together with their insurance policy N° and name of the company. If you look at any of the large rental company's conditions you will see that there is no question about it.

Stangely therefore the best clients would be the French who once again have a different approach to the problem of renting property. Whatever they have rented (in France) their own home insurance cover travels with them.

Anyway enjoy the rentals. Don't panic ...in 15 years, and with over 80 properties the worst we had was an American who sat on a valuable marble table and broke it in half. He paid up on the spot.