To decamp or not to decamp...

[Mels&Duncs]

Hi

New to this forum, so pls forgive any beginner's faux pas.

Yes, we too are keen to move to France and run gites (despite having digested all good reasons not to). What can you do if you simply enjoy France, speak French and want to escape the relentless Blair debaucle?

We are thinking of moving to Aveyron - mainly as it seems so under developed and beautiful. We hope to run two gites whilst also opening a shop selling children's products as there seems to be no mid-way product range between supermarket clothes/items and breathtakingly expensive children's clothing/product boutiques.

We've been researching for around 2 years and know the market we prefer to aim at which is children friendly. Happily for us, many gite owners can tolerate teens, but some (very reasonably!)fear the mess/noise/insurance issues associated with tiddly guests.  We have stayed in gites for the past ten years, the last three taking our own babies/toddlers. It has been an eye opener understanding the concept of 'child friendly' in France !

Every year we encounter stair gates at the top of the stairs and not the bottom (??), gas cookers with rings situated so close to the cooker edge it makes you wince as they have no spill guards, concrete steps galore (with no handrails) and more often than not, no garden or house toys that a small child could play with or on. God help us when it rained! Most gites are fantastic for children 8 years plus, with bikes, table tennis, canoeing, karting etc but to prepare for the very small means investing in a huge amount of toddler kit which many gite owners may find one investment too far.

Does anyone rent out gites in the Aveyron area - how are things going? The (very nice) owners of the gite complex we are interested in have a run rate of 20 weeks total on their two gites (10 weeks each). They currently advertise on two websites and have their own (very good) website. We believe we could increase bookings through our network and further advertising/marketing attempts. 

Any thoughts? Or are you all recoiling in horror at the thought of multiples of under fours crawling (quite literally) all over the furniture and potentially peeing in the pool?!

Thank-you

Melanie

 

 

[Cerise]

Whereabouts in the Aveyron are you thinking of going?  It is a big department and some parts of it are very cold so not much good for increasing your season.  Have you spent any time there out of season?  Last week left here in temperatures of 25 by the time I got to Rodez (70 km) it was a chilly 18 - whenever I go there in winter it is FREEZING and windy.

We are actually in the Tarn & Garonne on Aveyron border and gites around here have had a hard time this year.  Why are the people selling?  Unless you are in or near one of the towns everywhere is a long drive, for example, my computer went wrong (under guarantee) and  I had to take it back 3 times in a fortnight 90 km drive - 6 times to deliver and collect - and a morning/afternoon wasted each time.  Lovely place to be retired but a bit frustrating if you work and need to get supplies etc.

The child friendly aspect may not work either as you are a long way from the coast and many mothers do not wish to drive 800 km with 2 or 3 screaming infants in the car.  I appreciate there are exceptions but will they be enough to sustain a season - if your 2 gites are together if you advertise as particularly child friendly you may repel business for them as if you can only fill one with children those without children may not wish to go to the other. 

For the shop, have you researched the market?  Most the young mothers I know seem to buy everything from the supermarkets.  This is a poor area and people do not have lots of disposable income.  Most of the ex-pats are retired, so no small kids there and it is a low population density area.

This sounds like a very negative response but you did ask for opinions and in my opinion this is not the area for families with very small children.  There are lots of activities for older children but I think those with tinies prefer something a bit less long distance.  French families with small children nearly all go to granny's house anyway - most of my neighbours' have extended family to stay most of the summer.

If you want any information about the area in general please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help.  It IS a beautiful area but think hard before investing your hard earned cash in a business here.

Best wishes

Maggi

 

 

 

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Cerise"]

The child friendly aspect may not work either

as you are a long way from the coast and many mothers do not wish to

drive 800 km with 2 or 3 screaming infants in the car.  I

appreciate there are exceptions but will they be enough to sustain a

season - if your 2 gites are together if you advertise as particularly

child friendly you may repel business for them as if you can only fill

one with children those without children may not wish to go to the

other. 

[/quote]

Maggi really has hit the nub of the issue here. Will there be enough

young-family business coming into the area to ensure that you can

concentrate solely on this market? The length of journey is key, and

remember that those with young children are increasingly finding low

cost airlines an absolute pain in the bum for family travel as every

"improvement" they make to their services seems to make travel with

children more problematic. Proximity to a Ryanair-served airport is,

therefore, not necessarily an advantage when considering this sector of the market.

Twenty weeks, frankly, does not sound like thriving business for two

gites. I would reconsider carefully how and why you think that you

could made a substansive improvement on these figures.

[Coco]

I would second everything the previous two have said.  When we used to rent our house out in Normandy we EASILY got 14-16 weeks a year and had we wanted to rent during the winter, ie Feb half-term, October half-term and Christmas we could have done.  That was mainly due to the proximity to the UK, often it was a second holiday for people and they wouldn't have been interested in driving a long way at those times of the year. 

Now that we do B&B we find we have a huge amount of families in the age-groups that you are talking about, stopping en-route to Brittany.  These tend to be British, French and Dutch.  All choose Brittany because it's not TOO hot for tender young skins (Aveyron in July and August can be pretty hostile to little ones) and because there are lots and lots of those mobile home type campsites with a pool, kiddies clubs and lots and lots of activities for the children, with carers to look after them, so mums get a break as well.  I've heard lots of people say that it wouldn't be their ideal holiday but that it suits its purpose whilst the kids are so small.

You obviously have young kids yourselves at the moment, so know the market and don't mind having others around.  But will you want such young children around when yours are a bit older?

And with the clothes thing - I agree with Maggi, all our neighbours buy most of their kids clothes from the supermarkets, certainly the little ones.  The older ones usually want something a bit more "designer-ish" but the French are very careful with their money and will probably go for the cheaper end stuff whilst the kids are growing at a rate of knots.  

I absolutely LOVE Aveyron (and my husband, who's a fly-fisherman, thinks he's died and gone to heaven when he's there), so I quite understand why you would want to live there; however, unfortunately we still have to earn a living, so it's somewhere on our short-list as a retirement venue.

[Mels&Duncs]

Dear Maggi, Jon D and Cerise

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond- huge food for thought all round.

We were in La Fouillade (near Najac) in the third week of September - we didn't expect much sunshine as it was late season but it was still T shirt weather- however  your comments about freezing winters has hit home. The gite complex is in this area- you are right about lots of driving- I guess the glorious countryside made the miles seem to slip by.

Likewise the point about local French families not having much disposible income- we were hoping to do an Adams or Mothercare style cost range (which is similar to supermarket prices) however I can see even this may still not hit the mark and leave us with few customers.

Correct too the issue about things for families to do and proximity to the seaside- we had been wondering about going closer to the Riviera, but of course cost is a major issue at this point. We too have done the kiddie camp thing (Hoseasons) and I'd agree that it is not ideal - in fact, this is one of the things that spurred us on to find a middle ground for parents like ourselves. Sharing a pool with 50 other (usually bigger) kids, whose parents are happily snoozing on their sunlounger (lucky things) and trying to find a square inch of no splash zone is less than holiday fun all round..Likewise the child care on offer is either incredibly expensive or often far too scary to even contemplate.

We had thought of buying a gite complex near a water theme park in the South West so parents could use the park but return to a nice home instead of mobile home unit..any thoughts on this instead? We are not easily put off, but would be crazy not to heed good advice.

Many thanks

Melanie

[Wendy]

Hi, I applaud your wish to move to greener pastures and improve your quality of life. My post refers really to your intended business here. Please promise you will NOT stock in your shop those dreadful underwear items for little girls I see so frequently in places like Carrefour. I mean... padded push up bras, thongs and the like, and all aimed at little girls under ten. Good luck with the move as England is a sinking ship.

[Ron Avery]

I agree with Cerise, she is only down the road from La Fouillade, well 17kms or so  Ii is a big village  and it has three schools , I am very near La Fouillade and its certainly not T shirt weather today, it does get very cold here in winter, we were also cut off by snow for three days in march this year and have had temperatures as low as -15 c.  There are English people with children here but how long they will stay is anybody's guess, it is a really lovely area but for the mature person I think to savour and enjoy , there really is not much for young children to do and its three hours to the med at Montpellier.

I know of a couple of gite complexes for sale round here but as has already been stated ask why they are for sale. There is  not exactly a lot of passing trade for a shop, in winter the roads are very quiet once the tourists have gone home.  La Fouillade does have a supermarket of a fashion and a clothes shop for all ages but quite honestly only the elderly and those without cars use them as the shops and supermarkets in Villefranche are much cheaper and offer a far better range.  As Cerise says, it is a rural farming area and the only rich people have holiday homes here and live in Paris or the UK.  If you want more info on La Fouillade or the gites for sale PM me.

[Cerise]

   Well Melanie, if you won't be put off guess we'll just have to help you[:)]

I am indeed just down the road from La Fouillade (and it ain't half cold there in winter)  For your information the Aveyron FROZE OVER in December last year Brrrr. 

There are loads of gites for families in the area and frankly lots of them are not doing particularly well - in case you think that is sour grapes on my part, I do know as I am Vice President of the local Tourist Office.  What there are not - and maybe food for thought  - are enough smaller places for couples.  This area mostly attracts slightly older (say 45 - 70) couples and many of them do not wish to rent a huge gite with loads of facilities they are not going to use.  Something smaller and a bit more upmarket at not too extortionate a price is what is needed.  Heating would be a must, but not necessarily a pool.  Don't know if that would be compatible with your ideas but might be something that could work if you had the right property.  Friends who have one large and one small gite find that the smaller one has a much longer season.

The other thing to think about is the future for your children, there are schools here but quite honestly a lot of the kids are bored here and the distances mean that as soon as they start to make friends you are a constant taxi service.  There are no buses other than the school bus so if it were me I'd think of maybe living near Villefranche so that the children could have some life.  Not sure how old yours are, but I think that the idyllic life planned for children is a bit like educational toys.  Every parent thinks they should buy them, no child actually wants to play with them!!  The reality is that many children are isolated and fed up, and the school day is horrendously long.  The children who go from here to Villefranche (aged perhaps 11) leave at 7.15 am and return at 6.30 pm - a very long day in my opinion.

Well done to you for doing some research.  Feel free to contact me if you need any more information.

Maggi

 

 

[Coco]

There is of course one other thing we have all over-looked in this.  So much of a successful gite's business is RETURN business.  If you're going to be aiming at families with young children you're not giving yourself a very big window for the return business sector.  We have people (mid-50s) who first rented our house in 2000 and are coming back again next year (it gives us a fortnight's paid holiday as it were!)  Now if they were coming because the house was toddler friendly, we would have lost them several years ago - unless of course they had an enormous family!!!! [:$]

[nimportequoi]

I'm a bit puzzled as to what you have to invest in to 'attract' the baby and toddler market. We supply the usual baby kit: stair gates, cots, baby bath, high chairs, a few toys etc. but have never been asked for anything else and every year we are fully booked June to mid July usually just with young pre-school families. The little ones like the garden, the pool and the trampoline just the same as the older ones! St Armour is right about location and not beng too hot - we are in Brittany and had two families with young children staying in September who found even the Vendée too hot for their children last September so wanted somewhere cooler. The shorter travelling distance from ports is also attractive as a lot of families travel by car.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SusanAH"]I'm a bit puzzled as to what you have to invest

in to 'attract' the baby and toddler market. We supply the usual baby

kit: stair gates, cots, baby bath, high chairs, a few toys etc.[/quote]

....Susan, you'd be amazed how many people would consider these items

an"investment too far!" Furnishings  are usually the last items to

be bought by an aspiring gite-magnate and suffer most from late budget

cuts. Even an "essential" kit can run into a few hundred euros.

Whatever an owner provides, parents still have to bring a pile of stuff

with them when travelling with young children. Being only a few hours

drive from the ferry ports is a must. By a few I mean 3-5 hours tops.

[Ejc]

Some good advice here...

Just to say on the "parent taxi" service - that hits anywhere if you live in a more rural area - we're still in the UK and in a Hertfordhsire village - with a poor bus service so spent time running our older two boys around until they were old enough to drive. However - if you ask them if they would have preferred growing up in a town the answer is a resounding "NO" - they loved the freedom they had.

We move over to our home in Deux Sevres in the new year - we chose the area because of it's relatively easy access home via air / ferry  it doesn't take too long to drive if yuo take the longer sea crossing - and it has a wonderful microclimate.

As a family with small children we went down the caravan route - usually with smaller UK providers because we wanted the kids to be able to make friends and have lots of other children to play with - this was really important to us - the other thing that the children all wanted was proximity to a beach because they spent hours building sand castles .....

I agree that making your gites family friendly will be a bonus - but don't pigeon hole yourself too much, have you decided that Aveyron is the area you want to live?

 

 

[nimportequoi]

[quote user="Jon D"][quote user="SusanAH"]I'm a bit puzzled as to what you have to invest in to 'attract' the baby and toddler market. We supply the usual baby kit: stair gates, cots, baby bath, high chairs, a few toys etc.[/quote]

....Susan, you'd be amazed how many people would consider these items an"investment too far!" Furnishings  are usually the last items to be bought by an aspiring gite-magnate and suffer most from late budget cuts. Even an "essential" kit can run into a few hundred euros.

Whatever an owner provides, parents still have to bring a pile of stuff with them when travelling with young children. Being only a few hours drive from the ferry ports is a must. By a few I mean 3-5 hours tops.
[/quote]

I suppose you are right, some gite owners maybe don't consider these essentials, I hadn't thought of that! It is also true that cars are packed to the brim even without parents having to bring their own cots and high chairs.

BTW, talking of baby stuff, congratulations JonD!!![:D]

[Mels&Duncs]

Dear Wen, Ron and Maggi,

Thanks so much for your comments. Feeling not a little deflated this end!

Wen - agree with you re dreadful kiddie items - fortunately these seem to have been outlawed in the UK.

Ron of the Avey-ron- it does seem to be a retirement or life in the exceedingly relaxed lane, image that you portray- we hadn't really taken it in fully in our enthusiasm for the area. I know the clothes shop you describe in La Fouillarde, and each time we drove past it we wondered why the clothes were so conservative, shall we say. You have now answered this for us. We simply thought it might be that fashion sense needed a little updating- but it seems the owners have it spot on for the market.

Maggi- really useful info on schools first of all. I agree the day seems incredibly long - part of the reason we wish to come to France is so that we can spend more time as a family - not spend more time apart. The loneliness factor is also key - we are currently in a small village but connections to towns are really good.

Smaller gites - this is a great idea also. We could be flexible in our aims, perhaps providing some kiddie friendly spaces in the season and some couples slots. Our main reason for leaving the UK isn't actually to run gites - it is to escape the rat race and ride horses/do some work during the daytime and to achieve a less materialistic, less demanding lifestyle. We are pretty much sick of the 'buy it now', and 'you deserve it' type of approach that is now everyday life in England. The gites would pay the bills only and some kind of small business (tea room in a tourist area perhaps?) would fund extras. But the happiness of the children is the most important factor.

Looking at gite complexes in the South of France this evening makes me feel bleak - we'd have to have a considerable mortgage which we wish to avoid and means the Aveyron gite complex makes more sense financially.

Many thanks for all your comments and advice. If you have any further great ideas as regards gites/business locations then we'd be more than grateful.

Melanie

[Coco]

Looking at gite complexes in the South of France this evening makes me feel bleak - we'd have to have a considerable mortgage which we wish to avoid and means the Aveyron gite complex makes more sense financially.

Many thanks for all your comments and advice. If you have any further great ideas as regards gites/business locations then we'd be more than grateful.

(Sorry, can't get the quotes to work)

Melanie - I'm sure you're beginning to feel a little deflated with so many negative comments.  But please think of them as sensible and saving you a lot of heartache in the future, rather than negative or over-cautious.  You say you would "wish to avoid a mortgage", I would say it is ESSENTIAL to avoid a mortgage.  If you can't afford to buy outright then unfortunately the answer is, that for the sake of your family's hapiness, your marriage and your own sanity you will have to wait until you can.   DO NOT start a life in France with a mortgage or debt of any kind if you do not have a steady, good income and gites are certainly not steady.  People, especially tourists, are extremely fickle and trends can change at the drop of a hat.

I really, REALLY do wish you well and hope that you can achieve your aim, but so often there has to be compromise and maybe you will have to look in an area that wasn't originally so appealing.  You have talked of being closer to the sea in terms of heading south, which will cost you BOTH arms and BOTH legs.  But what about other areas close to the sea but not necessarily the Med?

I can tell you that if I didn't have to earn a living I wouldn't have chosen Normandy to live permanently.  Don't get me wrong, I love Normandy, even when it's cold (and I don't even mind the rain sometimes) but it's not my favourite part of France.  And we have LOTS of horses in Normandy!  I would much rather live in the Aveyron, Lot, Burgundy, Beaujolais or upper Rhone (is there a pattern appearing here?[B][Www]) but until we can afford to do B&B for the company and for the luxuries of life, rather than the essentials, we have to live in an area that gives us almost year round business - and where it isn't too hot to do all that ironing and cooking!!

[Mels&Duncs]

Hi all

Good points about return investment above- yes we'd aim at the toddler market but also have the standard stuff for teens.

The extra stuff for small children is always appreciated - you'd be surprised just how many gites are called 'child friendly' but are not - I think what many owners refer to here is their attitude and not the layout/equipment available. Many owners are fairly mature and no longer have their own kiddie clobber to share - unlike Susan (AH) who does seem to supply all the right stuff!

Most however do not have a changing mat (so baby gets changed on your nice douvet cover or worse...on the floor) ....and no cooker splash guard..no step ups for handwashing...no potties..no blender for mushing food for baby or a microwave to heat milk in the middle of the night.

I know, it is a long list but there is only so much room in an estate car and if a gite has these things they are more likely to be booked if (and it is a big if) the price is also right. There's a company which seems fantastic for parents of toddlers called  totstofrance.co.uk....However I'm not sure who they are marketing to as their prices are utterley astronomical even if the buildings are pretty much magical. Parents who can afford these prices usually have a nanny in tow and don't really focus too much on the practicalities to make her life easier!

We still manage to stumble across 'child friendly' gites with steep concrete steps to enter the front, with no handrail, more concrete steps to exit the back door, no fence for the pool as they have selected the alarm option, nothing to do when wet weather happens and yes books and films for adults but nothing for toddlers. I appreciate if your main market is couples then of course you're not going to wish to invest in these things!

Good point about the taxi service Ejc - we are currently in a small village near Farnham, Surrey and everything is close at pre-school and primarey school age but changes once they hit secondary - but it is still only a maximum 20 minutes.

Aveyron has been first choice because of the beauty of the area and the fact that it has been so under developed. However the latter is now becoming an issue as we have to remember that we will live there for 12 months a year with very little work going on for 8 months...We are now contemplating the unthinkable which is either Charente or Dordogne - which we know is saturated. We need to do more research with toddler groups/magazines this end to find out how/where they go on hols and how they choose ....to see if moving to either of these areas is financial folly.

Congratulations on the imminent move to Deux Sevres- are you running a holiday campsite then?

Many thanks to St Amour, Susan also for your comments.

Melanie

 

[Loiseau]

A thought... 
I know parents of toddlers love being able to take them to the beach, but this does not necessarily have to mean seaside.

If you had nearby a nice lake, with proper sand beach, pedaloes, picnic tables, a few trees etc this might be every bit as good.
I used to let out a gite in the Vendee, and people with small children often preferred the nearby lakeside beach with its shady trees to the vast beaches with hot sun.

Angela

[Garlic]

I maybe shouldn't be saying this as I could be creating competion for myself[:(] But have you consider slightly further south into the Tarn? There are some great lakes and where we are only an hour from the coast. Not as over developed as some areas and quite popular with the French for holidays...Non of this avoids the fact it's damn hot in summer and bleeming freezing in winter oh and school can be a pain, my son has had to go 80kms to find a Lycee that offers the course he wants...

[Mels&Duncs]

Dear Garlic/Amanda

Thanks very much for your advice- I have to say, I love your llamas! The website is great and the walks look terrific. The views from your gite/house just look stunning. Love the bit about three years on and you've just got a tub (very scary information to the novice).

We are looking all over to be honest- we are becoming more and more flexible but know we cannot afford to restore a place. One property agent has just told us it would cost 50,000E to put central heating in a five bed home and also 60,000E to put in a pool - this sounds outrageous to us as organising a pool in the UK only costs around £10-15000K- and there are more suppliers in France...So it is a case of trying to work out what is feasible.

We'll be looking for a base for our next house hunting trip - some time in November and if it is in the Tarn I'll be in contact - I'd love to meet the donkeys too.

All the best

Melanie

 

 

[Coco]

50K for central heating also sounds pretty excessive!!!  We paid 10K 4 years ago for a 3 bed house but the boiler was large enough to cope for our current barn extension - taking us up to a 5 bed/4 bath (heated towel rails), kitchen, dining room and 2 living rooms.  The extra radiators etc and labour costs have been nowhere NEAR 40K, more like 5K.  You sure he's not just trying to put you off buying a more run-down property where he wouldn't get such a good commission?

[Ron Avery]

I agree with St Amour, your property agent is talking gorrocks.

A pool for 60,000€ and C/H for 50k€[:'(] pull the other one.  Try 20% of the C/H figure and 50%  of the pool estimate for a normal size pool    I'm sure Poolguy can cofirm that the standard 10 x 5 or thereabouts  is around that mark, complete, dug out , fitted and finished. 

I  really seriously would consider getting rid of your property agent ,  if they are feeding you such bullshit about pools and C/H costs then what do they really know about?  Taking a big skim off the top by the sound of it and taking people like you for a ride and at your expense.  Sack them tomorrow[:@].  

[andyh4]

Not sure about Ron's 20% for the C/H system.  We paid 10k for a rather smaller system than you require, but he is certainly right that 50k is way out of range.

[Cerise]

Melanie

Me again - 13K 4 years ago for CH for 6 bed 4 bathroom house.  I don't know who the property agents are but it sounds like a scam to me.  Let me tell you cautionary tale of one of our B & B guests.  She was planning to pay 100K for a ruin with barely any land in the Aveyron.  The agent told her it would cost 40K to restore.  I had a fit when she told me, said ruin was worth 15K at the outside but would cost loads to restore and put her in touch with local architect and artisan.  Their devis came in at 150K for just the basic renovation and the architect was very concerned about the feasability of septic tank.  She paid 500 euros for this advice but saved her huge amount of money as she started again through the local agent (no english agent involved) and has now bought an older house WITH newish plumbing/electrics/central heating and a nice garden for  ...... yes 100 K euros - the same price as the ruin.

I don't mean it rudely, but you sounded very starry-eyed in your previous posts and I'm afraid the agents may see that and try it on.  Get your hard business head on, get anything you are contemplating buying inspected by someone who can give you a proper devis for the work.  Don't take ANY agents 'guesstimates' for work to be done and check, check and check again for any information given.  Go to the Mairie yourself to find out about the cadastral plans, if you may need planning permission for anything find out if you can get it and insist on it being a condition in the compromis.

If you seriously want to do this you must make the time to check things yourself.  We get quite a few house hunting guests and they are trying to 'makeover' their lives in a long weekend.  On the whole this is not possible, changing your life completely requires research and effort - a few basic enquiries in local pool shops would have made you realise that the pool figure was nonsense.  However romantic your dreams if you want to make them come true get tough, and be realistic - that way you stand a chance of being happy.

Hope you take this the way it is meant - kindly.  We came here without a great deal of money and have managed to make it work so I wouldn't want to shatter anyone else's drams - just give a dose of commonsense.

Best wishes

Maggi

 

[Garlic]

Hi,

Yes the llamas are lovely, the donks too! Do get in touch if you head this way.

On the central heating front...If I was going to fit it (and I think those prices quoted are just silly, but what do I know)...I'd look very seriously at a wood/solar fired option...If you are living here there are tax advantages and knowing that a)power cuts sometimes happen, b)electricity is expensive and c)wood is very available...it really makes sense!  

[nimportequoi]

Unless you have wood on your own land that you can use, I don't think it is a significantly cheaper option any more - at least not at the price I've been paying per corde of seasoned oak recently!