Where can I find the regulations?

[Saint David]

As a newcomer to the forum, I apologise if this query has been posted before.

Can someone tell me where I can find the regulations regarding pool security, especially fences preferably in English? My pool was built in 2002/2003 and is open to the rest of the garden. The builder is very vague about the new regulations and his advice is to wait and see what the neighbours (who are all French) do!

[Poolguy]

Saint David

I have sent yo a PM

Andrew

[Richardh<HR> <a target=_blank href="http:www.piscine-barriere.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=1>www.piscine-barriere.com<U><FONT><A><P><P>]

They don't exist in an official form in English, only in French. You can download the French norm from the AFNOR website for approx €96.

See the first post that comes up in Swimming Pool Security from the forum administrator for an excellent and accurate idea of costs of the different options. If your builder is being vague I guess it's because he feels that you have until Jan next year to do anything so there's no rush...However if you let your house you must have a device in place before your first guests arrive. Even if you only let to friends or close family your pool would be classified as being in collective use, so would need to be protected.

The rules are pretty simple. A basic summary would be:

If the pool is for collective use it must have a self-closing self locking gate.

The fence must meet the regulations, which in reality means it must have been tested and been approved by an appropriate testing laboratory (normally LNE), must be marked as conforming to NF P 90-306, must be installed in respect of the regulations written in the norm and you must have an 'attestation de conformite' from the manufacturer/installer.

It must be at least 1M from the waters edge. It must not be so far away from the pool as to be rendered ineffective (grey area this)

Must be over 1.1M in height, most are 1.2M

Cannot have anything within a 1.1M radius of the top of the fence that could be used a a climbing aid or foothold.

A hedge is not, under any circumstances, considered as a barrier.

The self closing gate must open away from the water and must be marked up with signage "Acces Verrouille = Securite" 24 point in Bold, plus "Verifiez le verrouillage et restez vigilants" as per the norm. Any other means of access must also have the same signage in the centre of it.

Any walls which together with the fence form a barrier around the pool must be at least 1.1M high and if they have windows these must not be less than 1.1M from the ground at their lowest point.

There are all sorts of specifics about the different types of fence, which need not concern you if you buy an approved product.

Hope this helps - i've sent you a PM if you need any more info.

Richard

[Saint David]

Thankyou both for your very helpful replies. When I see the builder at Easter I can now have a meaningful discussion with him.

[Mjc]

"It (the fence) must be at least 1M from the waters edge."

The above is culled from a recent reply to this thread.

Very interesting! Our pool has high walls on three sides. Two of these are walls of our house and of a barn, the other is a garden wall some two metres high. However, two of these walls are less than one metre from the water's edge. In order to comply, we will, presumably, need to knock down and rebuild the garden wall one metre away, and secondly, demolish one end of our house and move that wall back by a few centimetres....or of course, we could make our pool smaller!

These regulations really area nonsense. We know one person who has a 10x5 metre pool in his garden, which will require fencing. He also has an ornamental fish pool about 20 metres square and up to three metres in depth. He does not have to fence this!

You cannot leave a bicycle within 1.1 metres of the fence, since a child might use this to climb over the fence. BUT, you can leave it two metres away, because a child would never, of course, move the bicycle to the fence himself!

Can someone please clarify, because we have read conflicting advice, is an approved alarm, all that is necessary, or must it also have a fence?

[Richardh<HR> <a target=_blank href="http:www.piscine-barriere.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=1>www.piscine-barriere.com<U><FONT><A><P><P>]

I'll try and clarify, starting with your last point first.

Yes, you can buy an approved alarm and that is all you need. The regulations state that you must have an approved 'dispositif de securite' in place 24/7 from the 1 Jan 2006 (unless you let your house - in which case it should have been installed before 1 May 2004)

You only need one of the four possible options. An approved alarm, fence, cover or abri (shelter). The regulations state that at any moment that the pool is unattended, then an approved 'dispositif de securite' must be in place. Ergo: when you walk away for lunch, then you need to close and lock if you have a cover or abri, an alarm must be self arming by law, and a fence you either have to close and secure or if you have a self closing gate it does it itself.

The salient point that most people seem to have missed is that fences, covers and abris once locked are passive, in action 24/7 365 days of the year. If you buy an alarm it must be active through the winter, when you have your winter cover in place. Will the cover fit over the alarm? If it is solar powered, when the cover is over it, will it still function? If not, then not only do you have to buy an alarm, you also need to buy an approved cover for the time that the alarm is out of action. YOU MUST HAVE AN APPROVED DEVICE IN PLACE 24/7 365 DAYS OF THE YEAR FROM 1 JAN 2006.

The law does not say that you cannot leave an object within 1.1M of the fence. It only deals with permanent structures. 'Common sense' is required - something that the French still assume people have rather than the nanny government and blame culture that we have in the UK.

If a building or a wall is around the pool it states that doors or windows must be made secure so that children 5 and under cannot access the pool. The regulations stating at least 1m from the waters edge apply only to fences that you install because you do not have walls...so that access to the pool is blocked for small children.

Whilst I agree that it seems silly that ponds etc are not covered by the legislation (thank goodness) the reality is that the majority of domestic drownings of small children occur in swimming pools rather than rivers or ponds, and mostly whilst the children were under the direct supervision of their parents. Pools are seen as centres of enjoyment rather than danger and as a result children are comfortable around them, without realising that they can perish in a matter of minutes.

Remember, these regulations are based on other countries experience at reducing domestic drownings of small children - not just designed to spoil your view of your pool.

[Mjc]

Thank you Richard, for your very helpful reply.

Do you happen to have or know where to find the precise specification of the alarm system as defined in the French legislation?

As for an alarm system having to be active 24/24 7/7, what happens when one goes shopping or on holiday or whatever? The alarm may be active, but in the countryside, who would hear it? Would one still be within the law having installed an alarm and then going away?

I seem to remember that, several years ago, my Canadian based brother telling me that they had had similar legislation. However, somewhat paradoxically, after the law was enacted, the number of child drownings in pools actually increased because parents relaxed more, assuming that the pools were then safer, but, as we all know, children will find a way around many obstacles. The law was (if my memory serves me correctly) subsequently cancelled and fences are no longer required.

[Poolguy]

MJC

Just a note to add to the excellent response from Richard.

This law has been active in Australia for 30 years or more and its proven beyond doubt that it is helpful and necessary in that country. So there is nothing which needs to be added except that its about time that Europe caught up.

About the electronic alarm being on 24/7/365. If you not there, in residence or in fact in an adult trained in resuscitation is not within 3 minutes of the pool then the usefulness of an alarm is solely to comply as it will not save a life. If you are motivated to make safe your potentially lethal leisure facility (pool) then I propose that during the time you are in residence an alarm is a cost effective option. In those times when you are not then an approved cover might replace that protection. The ensemble will most likely cost less than an approved fence (depending on the size of the pool).

However all of that said, my particular motivation in specifying a safety devise is to save lives and not just to comply with the law. I would prefer the Fence as it always there and you will not forget to put it on and it will not stop working with electrical failure or malfunction.

Just a few thoughts, hope that they are helpful.

 

Andrew

[Richardh<HR> <a target=_blank href="http:www.piscine-barriere.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=1>www.piscine-barriere.com<U><FONT><A><P><P>]

In reply to Mjc's request about where to find the regulations for the alarms. Yes, I have bought a copy. You can find the regs for download on the AFNOR website - about 90 Euros.

If you fit an alarm, there's nothing in the rules that says you have to be there to respond to it, so you can install it and leave it. As long as it remains active you are covered under the law. If it is battery operated, then the regs say the battery must last at least a year so you should be OK unless it goes off just after you leave and stays shreiking for six months (they have to be cancelled by a human operation, so can carry on for ever...)

I've just done a little surfing looking at prices for approved covers and alarms to check Hendo's thought that buying both would likely cost less than a fence. I found that in fact the cost of a mesh fence, assuming you pay around €45 a metre for it plus installation, rather than one of the more expensive ones, would be cheaper than buying the cover and alarm.

As Hendo says you have constant peace of mind as a fence is an entirely passive security device. I guess it's all about doing something simply to comply with the law, which will not go away for a long time, if ever, or being serious about making your pool safe for children.

Hope this helps

Richard

[Mjc]

[quote]In reply to Mjc's request about where to find the regulations for the alarms. Yes, I have bought a copy. You can find the regs for download on the AFNOR website - about 90 Euros.If you fit an alarm, t...[/quote]

Richard, two further questions following your previous excellent advice.

 

1. There seems to be some conflict, regarding the pool alarm system. You have said that there is no stipulation that one must be present 24/7/365, but on another forum, it has been stated that someone must be available at all times to answer any alarm. As you have the regulations, could you kindly re-check this aspect?

2. Could you please advise where you found the €45 per metre fencing?

Many thanks in advance.

[Poolguy]

I note that your question is to Richard and so my reply is perhaps not appropriate but If I might offer a view.

The regulations will not be specific about a persons attendance to respond to an alarm as its nightmare territory for law drafting. What I suspect will emerge is similar to the case in other countries such as Australia where this law has been in effect for over 20 years. vis

The owner of a pool with an alarm or any other security devise will be required to exercise 'due diligence'. This means in short that If you know that you will not be in residence and an electronic alarm is your sole source of security then any court will find you negligent before the law, should you be examined following a drowning because even though the devise complies, it also relies on the 'reasonable expectation' of you being there to prevent a drowning.

This is not stated to my knowledge in the legislation but it is the practical outcome of the legislation as it will be applied when it is required. However I cannot see the future so these comments are conjecture.

Therefore, If you are not in residence for much of the time. to be safe and comply fully I would recommend that a compliant cover be used during that time. If you find it inconvenient to remove and replace every time you come and go from the pool then an electronic alarm will serve during that time. If these are too much bother then a compliant fence or a canopy are for you.

I might add another note of warning. I have heard of some pool installers, (typically those who do not sell fencing) telling owners that the fence MUST be within 1 meter from the pool. This is TOTAL NONSENCE and not at all stated in the legislation. What is stated as has been raise by Richard and others is that the fence must not be so far away from the pool as to render it ineffective. What that means will be tested in the same way as above. I suggest you treat any company which emphasises the view above with a great deal of suspicion.

In the end ask yourself are you interested in complying with the law, or saving a life, or both.

Andrew

 

[Mjc]

Many thanks Andrew.

 

With regard to your last sentence/question - of course, saving life is paramount. The reason for my endeavouring to confirm the requirements for the alarm is that we are frequently away for long periods, and our pool is already in an area which is totally enclosed with walls, none of which is less than two metres high. Three of the walls are within 1 to   1 1/2 metres of the pool, the other being about four metres away. We would need only to add an approved automatic lockable gate to replace the automatic lockable gate that we already have.

For us therefore, the fencing regulations are a complete nonsense, but in order to try and comply with the law we obviousy wish the least expensive option. When we installed our pool, we were very conscious of safety, and had it totally enclosed and secure for the very purpose of saving life, but this was before the regulations were in place. Now those regulations seem to give lesser security than we already have, but, if I have correctly interpreted the very useful info on this site, we must install "something" in order to conform.

[Poolguy]

Mjc

Yes you must instal 'something' (ie at least 1 of the 4)

If your fence is also smooth as well as being over 1.1 meters then it may be effective (in preventing entry) and so that, along with a self locking gate would give you some peace of mind. However, and this really must be stressed, even though it would be effective it would not necessarily comply. Therefore the addition of another devise say a compliant cover (very useful while you are away) will provide you with both assurances.

You will still have to use the cover however when you are in residence but not using the pool.

Andrew

[Richardh<HR> <a target=_blank href="http:www.piscine-barriere.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=1>www.piscine-barriere.com<U><FONT><A><P><P>]

Hi Mjc

I have cut and pasted below a few notes for you from the AFNOR Doc.

From Terms & Definitions

3.3 barrière de protection et moyen d’accès dispositif matérialisé conçu pour être implanté autour d’une piscine afin d’empêcher l’accès des enfants de moins de cinq ans à cette piscine La barrière de protection peut être combinée à un (ou des) mur(s) de bâtiments, d’habitation ou de clôture délimitant la zone dans laquelle est située la piscine dans la mesure où ces murs ne permettent pas un accès à la piscine par leur hauteur ou leurs propres ouvertures. NOTE Une haie seule n’est pas considérée comme une barrière de protection.

Section 8.2 Information a l'achat

—l’avertissement suivant : «Lorsque la barrière de protection est combinée avec un ou plusieurs murs, ces murs ne doivent pas permettre un accès à la piscine par leur hauteur (minimum 1,10 m entre points d’appui) ou leurs propres ouvertures (portes et fenêtres fermées par un dispositif à l’épreuve des enfants)» ;

Section 8.6 marquage

—apposer de façon bien visible sur les deux faces du moyen d’accès l’avertissement suivant : «ACCÈS VERROUILLÉ = SÉCURITÉ» en lettres de police 24 et en gras ;

—l'avertissement suivant, sur le moyen d’accès lui-même : «Vérifiez le verrouillage et restez vigilants» ;

Reading 3.3 and 8.2 together I would say that your four walls are sufficient. As for the gate, certainly you have the option of replacing it with an approved gate or even a simple door. As long as the door opens outwards and self closes and locks and the lock is more than 1.5M from the floor then you should be OK. You will of course have to label it up as per section 8.6. The notification must be 24 point Bold and on both sides of the door/gate.

Hope this helps

Richard

[Mjc]

Very many thanks for all your help. Looks as though I can save  a few pennies then!

[Richardh<HR> <a target=_blank href="http:www.piscine-barriere.com"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=1>www.piscine-barriere.com<U><FONT><A><P><P>]

Mjc

Just realised I didn't answer an earlier post.

The €45 per metre fencing can be found via www.piscine-barriere.com where you will also find a approved self closing gate should you require one.