Pool regulation farce or am I just the original cynic?

[MichaelH]

Swimming pools are dangerous and always have been which is why the only real safety measure is adult supervision. I heard of some research which suggested that fenced pools were more likely to suffer tragedies because of the fact that the extra security the adults felt meant that they dropped their guard and children being what they found their own ways of getting in.

Close to our house is an unfenced 9 acre lake and on two sides of our property there is a river also unfenced. We have no children here at all, and even if we had the recommended safety measures they would still at all times be supervised, but we are expected to spend our very limited cash on this nonsense. 

I feel that it is merely a means the French Government to get revenue (from the taxes on equipment and work used) and another example of the state mollycoddling citizens so that in the end they will have forgotten how to think for themselves.

We have a 5m x 10m DesJoyaux pool built into the side of a slope which we have to find a solution for. The pool has a tiled surround and behind that for a third of the perimeter is a wall retaining the slope and at one side a few feet away is our lovely abri with barbeque, table & chairs. To put a fence around the pool it would then separate the pool from the abri where we eat during the summer and would have to go up and down the various heights behind. We have many trees near the pool area and therefore have to use a cover, especially over the winter and could not use an alarm. The pool has a roman end and at the other end the pump/filter/steps unit intrudes into the pool so getting a safety cover to fit could be a problem. The cost of a hard abri type cover would be prohibitive.

I have heard people say that there will be no inspection of safety on private pools, but there would have to be tragedy for the 45000 euro fine to be implemented, but then if you had such a tragedy the fine would be the least of your worries.

I have heard many people say they are not going to bother with compliance, but I am uncomfortable with that. To begin with all materials and equipment had to be certified and fitted by a registered installer and now we hear that DIY equipment is acceptable if certified. Will there be further change again next year? Can you get a DIY pool cover?

I would be grateful for helpful suggestions.

Whew, now I have got that off my chest I am going to sit by the pool and have a beer.

Michael

[Poolguy]

Michael

Many of the initial points you have raised, I have already commented on in other threads and so will not need to go over. However, I am interested to read that you feel that a security cover is impractical for your pool 'as there is a Roman End'. No quite sure what you mean by that as I have sold security covers to many people whose pool has a Roman end. So for your pool, from the sound of it I would suggest that at Certified cover would be most appropriate, especially if it were electricly driven, and even solar powered. Conversely you can always use a battery drill to open and close it saving further €'s. Really, this does not have to be an impost but rather an enhancement to the performance of your pool as, particularly with a cover you get three benefits from the one addition vis: conforming security; heat retention; and a barrier for debris and bird droppings. The benefit of the last 2 apart from the obvious is that you'll then need less chlorine to sanitise the water as there are less organics to oxidise.

Secondly about DIY fixing, its really a less complicated issue than you might think. Basically so long as a certified security appliance can be shown to be installed strictly in accordance with the specification for which it has been certified, then the appliance will comply. This means that if a certain bolt say 8x55mm inox has been specified than that is what must be used or else the installation does not follow the norm. As for a cover, there are only 6 or 8 bolts to fasten the roller to the margelles and so long as these are correct then I cannot see a problem with self installation, and several of my clients have opted for this solution to save many €'s indeed.

I hope that I have been helpful but if you need more specific help then PM me.

 

Andrew

[Jc]

Roman End!!!My daughter nearly drowned in a paddling pool in three inches of water with people all round the garden.She survived and went on to be an outstanding swimmer.

[seb47]

Michael, we share your views exactly, as I know many others do. However, we have purchased an aqua sensor alarm this weekend (2005 model) at 690 euros minus 10% discount from our local supplier - not as a security measure, because vigilance will always supercede, but simply to comply with this ill thought out law. Our winter cover fits snugly over the top and we've tested each mode successfully throughout the weekend. My husband will keep an eye on the required water level immersion requirements. What is equally galling is that this year those of us who are forced to buy, are paying for the research on these tacky little alarms, and in future years the price is bound to go down dramatically.

Good luck - Sue.

[MichaelH]

Dear Sue,

Thank you for your response.

I would be very interested to know more about your alarm. I thought that they could not be used with a winter cover fitted. This is my first year with a pool. The previous owner drained the pool by a third at the end of the season and topped it up again in the spring, but over the winter the level slowly increased as the winter cover, though tight fitting is porous. Wouldn't this varation in level be a problem with using an aquasensor?

Your experience could be valuable to many pool owners.

Best regards,

 

Michael

[JJ]

We too have a 2005 Aquasensor, and yes to comply with the regulations the alarm must have the required depth of water 24/7, so emptying the water level to below the skimmers for winter is not an option, unless you have another approved security measure.

I am personally shocked by the amount of other pool owners I know who also have Aquasaensor alarms who do not not bother to switch them on! I even heard of once case where they bought one, but it is still in the box. I also know of a few pools with no security whatsoever.

I am slowly realising the the Aquasensor on its own is not enough, and that some form of cover or fencing is required in addition.

I know that this subject has been talked about on many occassions, but security is a very important issue which quite a few seem to ignore.

[Poolguy]

Michael

The regulations are clear.

A pool alarm may not be used in conjunction with a cover of any sort...winter or summer. If that is your intention then I suggest that you save your momey as you will not be compliant and certanly not avoid a fine when you are inspected. Any notion to the contray is ill informed and to be treated with suspicion.

A sensor will only work if the water level is at the correct height. As before you should also be aware that a sensor will only tell you that a drowing is in progress rather than prevent it which is the case with Covers, fence, abri.

If you need further help contact me via PM

Andrew

[JJ]

Hendo/Andrew,

Sorry if I have confused the issue with my last post.

Can you clarify that one cannot use an immersion alarm in conjunction with a summer cover? The bubble wrap type on a roller that a lots of us have.

I know lots of people who do. So this is important.

Many thanks

 

[Poolguy]

We are activley reviewing this situation.

But as it stands, the regulation states that the AFNOR Security device 'must be installed and operating at all times'. This means that Conformity depends on doing nothing which suspends or inhibits the effectiveness or operation of the security device as it was accredited.

With respect to winter covers, which are not conforming, then you may not install this over the alarm as it will supress the pressure wave on which the alarm relies to detect an incident. This will also happen to a lesser extent with a summer cover.

I can find no manufacturer of alarms out of the 8 that I know of that will state categorically that their device will conform to the Norm with a summer cover on. Hence, that alone, along with my own reasoning would lead to the proposition that you may not cover an alarm if you hope to comply, unless the cover is also Compliant.

The only case where I can reasonable offer as an exception is if the cover does not touch the water; that is if it is suspended like a low abri in whcih case its possbile that it would conform, so you need not invest in an alarm.

In all it is clear to me that you are correct in your summation that an alarm is suitable only as a secondery level of security. Those who choose an alarm as a sole security, in particular those who operate a gite or a pool for public/commercial use are exposing themsleves to an unessesary level of risk.

I will publish again if I find out anything more precise about this issue but for the time being I would urge pool owners to err on the side of caution.

Andrew

[MichaelH]

I have today sent an email to Aquasensor asking them to read the forum replies and comment upon them.

 

Regards,

 

Michael

[MichaelH]

Dear All and especially Andrew,

Andrew mentions 'when the pool is inspected'. Are all pools going to be inspected or just pools where paying guests will be using a pool? I imagine that people who take paying guests will require insurance and the insurance companies are likely to want a report on the pool safety before issuing cover. But for those who do not have paying guests, will these pools be inspected as a matter of course?

The more I think about this issue, the more it appears to be a total can of worms. If I fit either an alarm, cover or fence, they all have to be disabled to allow access to the pool. Lets say that my wife and I want to swim and there are another two families here at the same time. When I want to go out I have to give charge of the pool to a visitor who I may not know well? If the alarm is not turned on again, the cover not refitted or a shoe is wedged into the gate to stop it shutting where does the responsibility lie? It's a bit like car safety belts, but the difference is that it is they are much better understood and more simple to put on or off.

Maybe a simpler solution might be to do away with the chlorine put koi carp in and call it a pond!

Regards,

 

Michael

[Poolguy]

Michael

I certainly appreciate your posts and the consideration you are affording to this issue as I think that it warrants no less. As you have single me out for special attention, I should indulge in a little explanation of my position on this matter.

I need to point out that I do not work for the Government, nor do I represent their real intentions insofar as inspections or enforcement of these laws, as you a no doubt aware, I am a pool professional whose interest is shared between commercial enterprise and defending the higher moral ground on this issue

In this light, my posts with respect to the enforcement of the Security legislation are opinion nothing more, even conjecture in some case. The Determining outcome of many of these question will be a matter the High Court of France in many cases. This relates specifically to issues concerning 'duty of care' where the pool is in use and therefore the security device disabled but replaced with responsible supervision. With the exception of the notion of 'propping the gate open with a sandshoe' I can see tremendous scope for confusion and difficulty in assigning responsibility should there being an incident. This will be a matter which will make some Advocate very wealthy during the course of its initial prosecution to establish the Precedent. For I suspect that the defence shall be very complex indeed especially with respect to assigning responsibility in the case of a landlord/tenant/guest point of view.

For my part, I hold only one notion to be completely true, that is the Raffarin law on Pool security as it has been written. Along with that I adopt a particular stance on this and other public forums which purports to offer and defend an opinion which errs on the side of caution rather than a more casual approach taken by some other posters. As for the my opinion of the French Governments capacity and inclination to implement this law to its fullest extent; I have observed quite a few instances where Messers Sarkozy, de Villepin, Raffarin have indeed not been short of the resolve to get their policies implemented, especially when they have a special interest which is the case with the law and Rafferin.

My sole reservation at this point is the difficulty I see in enforcing the right of access for inspection as a matter of legislative obligation as I am not aware of a Precedent for this intrusion. However, if Sakozy et. al. muster the resolve, I cannot see this as an obstacle for long. On the matter of who will be inspected, I would be surprised if anyone group were singled out to the exclusion of others. Rather I suspect that ALL records of Permits du Constuire will be complied into a list and systematically visited. Whether it is newest first or last, no one is to know at this stage, but I cannot realistically speculate that anyone will be exempt from this law both in spirit and implementation.

To conclude, if anyone reading this Forum and our posts are unsure of their obligation, for my part I will not deviate from the path that everyone should take this law seriously and consider the security option very carefully. Choosing the correct device for a particular situation could be either a wise purchase or very, very expensive mistake, for if an inspection reports an unrealistic or inappropriate/ineffective installation then the fine (€45,000) will far outstrip any devis provided by a pool professional. I emphasis again and finally that compliance with the Raffarin law on pool security is a very personal choice as are the consequence of getting it wrong.

To this end, I remain as I have been in support of recommending the fullest rather than the least compliance with the law by all pool owners, Commercial as well as private.

8 weeks to go.

I will look forward to reading the reply from Aquasensor, as I could get none which was satisfactory.

Andrew

[Martin963]

Whilst respecting all points of view on this discussion,  I have to say that our French friends and neighbours (who after all have much greater experience of France and French legislation) with private pools are:

a) not at the moment doing anything about their pools,  either with alarms,  fences,  or anything else

b) totally rule out the possibility of universal inspection of every pool in France.

c)  certain that the full €45000 fine will only be imposed following an accident where adequate precautions have not been taken.

Now obviously they may all be wrong,  but I have to say that in light of their greater experience of French custom I think it is too easy for us as "foreigners" to get into the mindset that at midnight on 1st Jan 2006 an army of one million inspectors is going to appear - one at each pool - and levy the full fine on anyone who happens (for example) to have put a winter cover over a pool alarm (as we have!).

Having spent €1000 on a pool alarm worth €80 and now finding that I'm not supposed to put a cover over it,  j'ai ras le bol with this daft legislation.  In our case the nearest house is 700 m away,  the nearest child is over 1000 m away, we have 8 cats who dance on the cover whilst we are away,  and even if the alarm goes off no-one is going to hear it as we are in Devon for the winter.  How daft can it get? 

I'm in no way belittling the need to save lives,  but the more I see of this farce the more cynical I become - after all if it REALLY WAS TO SAVE LIVES THE VAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 5.5%.

As it stands I reckon Chirac gets a minimum of €200,000,000 in VAT receipts alone on this exercise.

[MichaelH]

Here is a paste of the reply to my email to Aquasensor:

Monsieur,

Nous répondons volontiers à toutes les questions qui nous sont posées directement.

Nous ne pouvons pas aller sur tous les forums de discussion parlant des alarmes, sauf à embaucher à plein temps plusieurs employés.

Cordialement,

Frédéric Ganga,

Service Clients.

 

It seems to me that this company could be missing a valuable opportunity for free publicity direct to their most likely potential customers, unless, of course, there is something about the product that they would rather not have discussed.

We may never know.

 

Regards,

 

Michael.

[JJ]

Michael,

Firstly, many thanks for talking to Aquasensor.

Having read the incredible, but not surprising reply from Aquasensor, there appears to be only one way forward.

As you have already communicated with them, could you seek clarification from them on a personal basis and then post their reply to this forum. Of course , you may be one step ahead and have already taken this action.

Cheers.

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

I am not so sure this "Pool regulation farce...." will generate more tax for the government. I was very close to installing a new pool for (private use only) and was a little dismayed at the total cost. The safety fence issue, as I understand it so far, seems cloudy and EXPENSIVE.

So, we have delayed the pool installation for a while until things get clearer (and I earn a bit more!).

That's 30000 euros we haven't spent this year.

[Poolguy]

Nearly Retired

Sorry to hear that you think that the issue of Security compliance is 'cloudy'. I'm not sure how you came to that as to me it seems very clear, but there must be others who are providing comment to you who either do not understand the law or are obstinate in their decision to defy the law and wish to ‘muddy’ the issue with hearsay or unsubstantiated claims to justify their own position. On their head be it.

Also I am worried that you have the notion that a complaint pool should cost as much as 30K, rather I would point out that there are plenty of opportunities to get a perfectly operative and compliant installation for less than 20K.

I believe that this is an issue which is a throwback of an industry which has no regulation at all (save this security compliance) that some operators are getting away with charging very high prices and often producing either substandard work or no after sale service what so ever. Its well past time that an industry association existed to certify the quality of pool installations. For my part, I am as busy in renovating or correcting bad pools as installing new ones. Some of the installations I have seen and been asked to comment on can only be described in the pejorative.

Talk to me via PM is you need help or advice.

Andrew