BIO-UV

[mjw]

Hi all,

In the process of commissioning a pool. One of the suppliers has recommended a BIO-UV ultraviolet unit for the water treatment. In theory it sounds great - no chemicals apart from a little dosing plus pH regulator. I'm struggling to find anyone with any experience of using this type of kit rather than the more common Chlorine units. I'm going to need to close the pool out of season and it will probably be a resin coque type.

Views gratefully received. Many thanks.

 

[Poolguy]

These types of machine 'come a go', in and out of favour.

They received their highest popularity in sanitising bottled water as it is easy and cheap to pass a regulated flow of water under the UV lamp and Zapp any of the bugs still living after extensive filtration. Then the water is bottled and the cap sealed so no more contamination can take place - good result.

This process has real dissadvantages in a swimming pool situation where the water is open to the elements and all of that ' environment' trying to get in there and live as we know it does so well. So if you have a UV lamp treatment then, you are pumping water from a contaminated pool passing it under the lamp killing the bugs and sending it back into a contaminated pool. So its contaminated again. Now the promoters claim that the rate of sanitization can keep pace with the proliferation of bugs.. REALLY? 

During summer with high temps, a lot of swimmers, and perhaps a few nitrates and phospates from bird poo dropped in for good measure I have seen pools turn green in front of me (within a hour).

So I can assure you that this system is inadequate for all occassions unless your pool is very very small and you would have to suppliment with chlorine as wellif you want to run a sterile pool and look after the health of your family. So wat's the point?

There is no real reason to be affraid of or want to move away from chlorine, it has worked well for centuries and if you understand how to manage it, it will work well for you. If you don't want to know anything about it at all and want the pool to look after itself, then you need an automatic doser. see my website http://www.poolguy.fr/products/product-sanitization.htm

I hope that this has been of help.

Andrew

[Hagar]

Andrew -  whilst I admire the time you spend on here giving advice to people with their pools - and can see that a lot of that advice is very valuable- I do have difficulty with your repeated stance that chlorine and the automatic dosing system ( that you happen to sell) is THE solution and every other system has serious faults/drawbacks.

To the OP - I installed a Bio-UV system in 2004 in an open pool of 14m x 6m. I have never had a serious problem with the system and am very satisfied with both its performance and the water quality. It was originally recommended by a pool consultant when I asked them for a system that required minimum intervention on my part.

The only time I have ever had a "green pool" was when an electrical fault caused the pump to trip out whilst we were away for 6 weeks.

The pool is completely open - I don't use a pool cover and I don't shut it down in Winter.

From November to April I don't add any chemicals other than a very small amount of liquid PH- (suplhuric acid solution) which is dosed automatically. Through the summer I use a total of 30 litres of BIO-UV Remenant - again dosed automatically. That's 30 litres into a pool with capacity in excess of 100,000 litres.

Everybody who has used the pool has commented on the water quality and its "softness".  

Downsides are the remenant is expensive - €10 per litre. The initial cost is high compared to other systems.   The repacment sensors for the PH doser are expensive and may need replaced every couple of years (c €300!) .

Were I to build another pool I would go for BIO-UV again - Only difference is I would use Zeolite in the filter rather than sand (as recommended by Andrew).

Hope that helps

Hagar

p.s you can see some testimonials for BIO-Uv on their website www.bio-uv.com including a significant number of large municipal pools.

 

[buckdendave]

This looks quite interesting.  UV is widely used for sanitising water for various purposes, as your reference website shows.  But like Andrew I would normally expect to see something else added (e.g. chlorine, etc.) as a residual, and for all the reasons that he gives.  Maybe if the flow rate past the UV source is high enough (relative to the pool capacity) and the power is sufficient then the system can cope on its own.  Looking at the flow rates given on the various residential pool products offered, this looks feasible.  It would have to run for most of (if not all) the time though.  Still, the power consumption looks very moderate (less than a pump) so not too much of an imposition.  I wonder how long the lamps remain effective?

Then again I wonder what the Bio-UV remanence is (the word doesn't mean much to me, but my french is poor) - it sounds like an algaecide or something similar - very much a chemical additive.  Which suggests that UV alone really isn't enough.

David 

  

[mjw]

Thanks all for your input. I have been doing a fair amount of research around all the things that need considering when installing a pool - but it's obviously a complex area with lots to learn. Plus I'm fitting the research around all the other things that need doing when having a house built in France!

I met with 2 pool installers in France and as well as getting completely differing views regarding construction in the Hourtin area (high water table apparently), I also got very different advise with the sterilisation.

Having read Andrew's excellent web site I went armed with a full 39 page Chemigem operating manual - only to get it poo pooed by one of the installers as being expensive to maintain and unreliable when sensors fail.His solution being a Sterilor salty system.

It seems that the suppliers package a complete solution (construction/filters/sterilisation/heating) and are reluctant (completely inflexible) to mix and match approaches.

Encouraged to hear that someone has a BIO-UV system installed and is happy with it - but a bit concerned that the running costs may be a bit high.

More food for though (sigh). Many thanks again all.

mjw (Martin)

[Jonzjob]

I do know that Andrew sells this kit, BUT it works!

The idea of zapping the water with UV is great, but there is the water that is in the pool that will not go through the pump/filter system for a while. It is always going to happen that any pool is going to have 'dead spots' that are going to be very slow at getting the water though the pump. They are not going to be 'sanitised' as often as they should and the only way to make sure that the water is clean is to put it in a situation where it has enough, not more, sanitiser to keep it clean. UV, in my humble opinion will not reach these corners because it is only sanitising te water passing through the light. Yes, great if you could zap the complete pool with a light in the corner of the pool itself, but it isn't.

I had a look at the web site and I must say that I didn't gain much from it? Perhapse as Buckendave said there is something being chcked in to make it work???

I will continue to go along with our auto chlor/PH system. No funny smells, no having to have a shower after a swim, no funny hair colour apart from my natural GREY and no stinging eyes. If you have a chlor pool and you are suffering any of these things then I would have a VERY carefull look at the chlo/PH levels in your pool because they are wrong!!!!! While you are there check the TA, total solids and the cyanuric acid levels. They all go to a healthy pool whatever type of sanitisation you use?

 

[Hagar]

John - I am absolutely sure Andrew's system works just as you say - my point was that its not the ONLY solution.

You are quite right that UV treatment on it's own is not enough - for a full treatment you need to add a disinfectant that remains in the water. That is the "remenant" I referred to. BIO-UV offer two types. In both cases the active ingredient is Hydrogen Peroxide. You can also use Chlorine or Bromine which is what the municipal pools in France do.

I prefer to use Hydrogen Peroxide as it disperses naturally , reasonably quickly, and leaves no residual in the pool (one less thing you have to control/manage). Yes it is far less effective than chlorine at "killing" but combined with the UV treatment works very well. An added bonus is I can use the backwash for watering the garden. 

UV and Hydrogen Peroxide is approved by the Australian authorities for indoor public pools. One of the reasons it is used is that it avoids the build up of chlorine gases that have been shown to cause health problems for pool attendants and competitive swimmers.

To repeat - I am not saying this is the only solution - or even the best - but it works for me (and quite a few others judging by the business growth reported by BIO-UV)

rgds

Hagar 

 

[Jonzjob]

I realise that there are several ways and if your one works for you Hagar then that is good [:D][:D][;-)]!!

Enjoy it my friend [:D]

[Hagar]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]

I realise that there are several ways and if your one works for you Hagar then that is good [:D][:D][;-)]!!

Enjoy it my friend [:D]

[/quote]

de même !

Hagar

[mjw]

Thanks for the posts John & Hagar - all adding to top up my knowledge on these things.

As I stated earlier, i was finding it difficult to introduce a mix and match solution. The installers I spoke with (at length) seemed to want to sell their complete solution. Certainly they didn't appear too enthusiastic about me introducing the ChemiGem approach.

Does anyone know if it is typical that you have to go with an installers whole solution or is it easy to find someone to install the groundworks/pool and perhaps someone else to fit your required sanitisation solution?

It seems to me in France that suppliers of most things quote "insurance/guarantees" as a barrier to dividing works. I even came up against this with a stove installer - nobody wanted to fit one if I sourced/supplied it (at a much lower cost) myself.

So, someone to fit the pool/pump/filter, someone else to supply and fit the sanitiser? Possible? Anyone taken this approach with success?

[Poolguy]

There are quit a few methods of sanitising a Swimming pool which are acceptable to the DDASS (Dept of Health). Which include;

 ( Arrete du 7 Avril 1981)

Chlorine gas

Chlorine liquid

Bromine

Ozone

PHMB

Since then, they have added

Hydrogen peroxide

Ultra violet lamps (with suppliementation)

Now all of these systems have their various advantages and disadvantages. Chlorine Gas for example is highly dangerous and may only be used in certain controlled circumstances. Hydrogen peroxide is very volatile and explosive and will not work with anything else but UV.

So for Hagar's benefit and for others who read these posts regularly, let me reiterate that my position is and always has been, so long as the regime adopted in the pool provides a sterile and safe swimming environment, then I have no issues to raise. However, where I do raise vigorous objection is where there are False Claims made, or there is inadequate sterilisation resulting from the regime adopted. So I stand by my remarks, which are mostly researched and verifiable through conventional science and worldwide best practices. If it seems to readers that I am pushing one particular solution, it’s that it stands out in my assessment, head and shoulders to provide the 'best value for money’ and the easiest and safest solution - nothing more. If there was an alternative that eclipsed the Chlorine direct injection method then I would be the first to investigate and you would find me speaking about it at length here and everywhere. This part of a pool is so important to get right, it’s the bit you are swimming in, and if it isn't adequate, then there a no end to the dangers and drama's which will certainly result.

Hagar has spoken in favour of the Bio UV method and for him it works – Good! But lets be clear-‘ the Revlement’ is Hydrogen peroxide that much I know and he has said so. Hence to be required to put 30 litres of Peroxide in the pool to support the other regime negates its advantages – it is NO WAY a chemical free regime that it claims to be, in fact he is running a Peroxide pool which is assisted by the UV process and not the other way around. Hydrogen peroxide is a VERY efficient killer of bacterium, nearly 10 times more efficient than chlorine, it is so aggressive and residuals are so long lasting that in his pool 30 litres are sufficient compared to nearly 150 litres of chlorine (estimate -PG). It means that by and large once the pool is dosed with peroxide he could turn off the UV process as there is enough sanitization going on already. So I cannot say that it doesn’t work because, with peroxide in the water it clearly does – very clear water, but what I can say and I stand by this, is that the UV lamp by itself will not do the job, for the reasons I have already stated in previous posts. More over, the use of the word ‘Bio’ is a misnomer as it is not ‘Biological’, that is just ‘marketing Speak’. So again I say, if you are happy with it then continue to use it and please do not regards my remarks as essentially knocking this solution – I am merely seeking to explain the truth for other readers.

For MJW, I am not at all surprised that your installers are not wholly enthusiastic about the Chemigem solution of direct injection. For in France generally and the Pool industry particularly, there is a persistent culture of ‘Stick with what your know – regardless!’, and this will cause an implacable barrier to even self-evident changes in practice. I seriously doubt that the installer you have contact knows anything about the system he is condemning, (certainly the statements he has made are wrong), but rather is proposing a salt solution to maximise his own profit. He is not interested in your water quality, just getting the job done with little aggravation – which for him means ‘don’t do anything differently’. If you are committed to this installer or another then I hope that it works for you and that you are satisfied with his solutions to your needs. But if you are not yet committed, then perhaps you would like to contact me and I can offer you another solution for its sure that they cannot match my results in water quality- that is proven any times.

 

Andrew

[Hagar]

[quote user="Poolguy"]

Hagar has spoken in favour of the Bio UV method and for him it works – Good! But lets be clear-‘ the Revlement’ is Hydrogen peroxide that much I know and he has said so. Hence to be required to put 30 litres of Peroxide in the pool to support the other regime negates its advantages – it is NO WAY a chemical free regime that it claims to be, in fact he is running a Peroxide pool which is assisted by the UV process and not the other way around. Hydrogen peroxide is a VERY efficient killer of bacterium, nearly 10 times more efficient than chlorine, it is so aggressive and residuals are so long lasting that in his pool 30 litres are sufficient compared to nearly 150 litres of chlorine (estimate -PG). It means that by and large once the pool is dosed with peroxide he could turn off the UV process as there is enough sanitization going on already. So I cannot say that it doesn’t work because, with peroxide in the water it clearly does – very clear water, but what I can say and I stand by this, is that the UV lamp by itself will not do the job, for the reasons I have already stated in previous posts. More over, the use of the word ‘Bio’ is a misnomer as it is not ‘Biological’, that is just ‘marketing Speak’. So again I say, if you are happy with it then continue to use it and please do not regards my remarks as essentially knocking this solution – I am merely seeking to explain the truth for other readers.

[/quote]

I am sorry Andrew – Thought we had let this thread go – You say you are stating the truth but the key points you make above are simply wrong.

 

1. Hydrogen Peroxide is NOT 10 or even 5 times as effective as chlorine – rather the reverse.
2. Hydrogen Peroxide does NOT leave residual chemicals in the pool it degrades into water and Oxygen  ( H2O2 = H2O + O)
3. Hydrogen Peroxide in a swimming pool environment is much less persistent than Chlorine – particularly when the chlorine solution has stabilising agents added such as Cyanuric Acid. Which themselves cause problems with residuals.
4. There are serious health issues with chlorinated pools particularly with young people, heavy use AND enclosed environments ( Abris, Pool Covers ???)

 

If you or anybody else does not believe me then simply google with Hydrogen Peroxide , Chlorine and pools. You will find many commercially motivated articles but some strong scientific references such as –

 

This from the people who make the stuff – US Peroxide

 

“By itself, H2O2 is a rather poor microbiocide compared to chlorine, bromine, ozone, and other commonly used disinfectants.”

 

This from the French Governments national scientific research centre

 

“The test results confirm the very good killing activity of sodium hypochlorite (chlorine)…….In contrast to that the biocidal effect achieved by the hydrogen peroxide-based products was significantly lower than one log cycle notwithstanding a very high concentration of up to 150 ppm.”

 

For the health issues with Chlorine check out this site www.coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/chlorine/asthma.htm

 

 

So – your figures – 30 litres of Remenant – This is at 35% solution – i.e 10 litres of Hydrogen Peroxide – Equal to – 2 litres of chlorine! (estimate -PG)

 

That is enough in itself to Sanitise a pool of over 100 000 litres capacity with an annual renewal of some 25 000 litres ! – Reallly!

 

Don’t forget that I don’t actually add any Remenant for 5 months of the year.

 

You are telling people that the UV treatment is simply not effective – that is NOT the truth. It is in fact the major effective component apart from filtering– The Hydrogen Peroxide is simply an insurance.

 

And finally – think about this – The more the pool is actually used (unhygienic practices apart) the more effective the UV system is.

Rgds

Hagar

[Hagar]

[quote user="mjw"]Thanks for the posts John & Hagar - all adding to top up my knowledge on these things. Does anyone know if it is typical that you have to go with an installers whole solution or is it easy to find someone to install the groundworks/pool and perhaps someone else to fit your required sanitisation solution?

 So, someone to fit the pool/pump/filter, someone else to supply and fit the sanitiser? Possible? Anyone taken this approach with success?[/quote]

Hi MJW - hope you don't think I've hijacked your thread with some rather esoteric discussions with Andrew.

When we installed our pool I did something similar to what your proposing. Our basic and prime contract was with the builder who actually constructed the pool - traditional reinforced concrete lined with ceramic tiles.

Through my own research I identified what type of water management system I wished and in conjunction with the builder identified a local supplier. The builder then agreed to sub-contract the pool equipment supplier and take responsibility for providing a pool "pret-a-plonger".

This last step was important as probably the most important thing is to get the sizing right - pump/flow rate, no of inlets/outlets etc , and to have the plumbing correctly sized and run for the system you want to use. Basically the builder and the equipment supplier had to sort that out between them.

Very happy with it - Downside - not the cheapest route by any means - particular when compared to the "kit" style suppliers.

rgds

 

hagar 

 

 

 

[mjw]

Dear all - many thanks for the lively debate. The thread is by no means hijacked. To the contrary it's all adding to my understanding. If nothing else the sanitisation issue is obviously a complicated one - not helped by suppliers sticking to what they know/think most profitable as Andrew suggests.

I need to go away and do some more thinking - it's important to get this right. Andrew/Hagar I may come back and send you a few questions if that is OK with you both? I really appreciate you having taken the time and trouble to answer my posts.

Speak soon,

kind regards,

Martin.

[Polly]

Reviving an old thread... does anybody have any experience of a UV Bio pool turning green, quite suddenly, and if so how did you get it back to 'normal', and how long did it take you, without draining & refilling the pool? (I put that in to stop any cheating cheeky answers!)

[Théière]

Oops!

Turn off the UV and shock with liquid bleach (un-scented) from a brico take the water to 5-10ppm of free chlorine and filter for 24/7 untill it clears

If you don't turn off the UV the chlorine demand will rise so much that will have trouble shocking it.

EDIT: and post a set of water parameters so we can see where you are. Were you using hydrogen peroxide???

Edit again: this thread pre-dates me, Hagar is right about sanitiser (Hydrogen peroxide) being less effective than chlorine but Andrew is right about it being a more powerful oxidiser, therfore I conclude a DRAW![:D]

 

 

[Poolguy]

Deja Vu

Careful Teapot  ole chap....

We do not know if the poster has a Peroxide remnant in which case the chlor choc will have not effect what so ever.

I suggest a test regime first.

 

Andrew

 

 

[Théière]

Yes sorry Andrew, as I said that thread pre-dates me and I went back a read it afterwards hence the edit note.

[Théière]

A Polygon [8-)]

[Jonzjob]

TeePee me awd mate, what has a dead parrot got to do with this?

[Théière]

Polly resurected this old thread and now they have gone, hence.....

[Polly]

Thanks for the replies. Further info :

12x6m flat bottom pool with steps, installed by a previous owner of the property who left no instructions for the current owner who is flying by the seat of his pants and trying to learn as he goes! He called us in to help, so OH did practicals and I have been googling.

As the property is let at the top end of the holiday market a green pool is not good news.

Peroxide remanent in use

The automatic doseurs for PH and remanent don't work, doses are added manually

The filter is one of those vertical cylindrical cartouche fibreboard types, which is cleaned out regularly (there is a second exchange one)

There is no sump, and no means to hoover to waste unless you set up a siphon (tediously slow)

The jets and skimmers are at one end, as in a Desjoyaux 'pipeless' system. When the filter is clean it works OK i.e. the jets shoot out the length of the pool

[Théière]

Hi Polly,

What are the water figures?

PH

Peroxide level

Phosphate level

Total alkalinity

Total Hardness

I think you need a copper based algaecide as its the only thing you can use that will actually kill the algae and work with peroxide.  You must be very careful not stain the pool so you do not want more than 0.6ppm of copper and a PH around 6.8-7.2.

How deep is the pool so we can work out the volume?

[Poolguy]

[quote user="Polly"]Thanks for the replies. Further info :
12x6m flat bottom pool with steps, installed by a previous owner of the property who left no instructions for the current owner who is flying by the seat of his pants and trying to learn as he goes! He called us in to help, so OH did practicals and I have been googling.
As the property is let at the top end of the holiday market a green pool is not good news.
Peroxide remanent in use
The automatic doseurs for PH and remanent don't work, doses are added manually
The filter is one of those vertical cylindrical cartouche fibreboard types, which is cleaned out regularly (there is a second exchange one)
There is no sump, and no means to hoover to waste unless you set up a siphon (tediously slow)
The jets and skimmers are at one end, as in a Desjoyaux 'pipeless' system. When the filter is clean it works OK i.e. the jets shoot out the length of the pool



[/quote]

I would certainly make it clear to the new owner that this pool is in NO WAY suitable for a let Property. As it is a public pool there are standards which apply and from the sound of it this system has never and will never conform to the norm.

I suggest that there is a radical refurb necessary before it could be suitable for use by paying customers, otherwise the risk of litigation could result from guest contracting infections as a result of swimming. Its way too risky as, should it happen then there would certainly be no defence what ever against a claim whether legitimate or flippant.

Andrew

 

 

[Polly]

Andrew, it's a one family house, so the pool doesn't come within the definition of a public pool (see Chrish's thread DDASS visit earlier this year)

However I agree with you that a total overhaul would be an excellent idea, for a start the filter is a big problem, and should be changed for something more effective. Owner says funds are limited (aren't they always?) but at least he has agreed to research into options and costings at the end of the season.

Teapot, sorry I don't have the figures here, they are on site. Pool is 1m50 deep. It's a recommended method I'm after, preferably from someone who has experience of handling a similar situation as it's not dealt with on any of the suppliers websites (no surprise there, they wouldn't want to admit that there could be any problems!) We can work out quantities/details.