French Inactives and CMU -

[ali-cat]

There have been a lot of calls on these threads for UK citizens legally living in France to be treated equally to French nationals as regards access to the French healthcare system.  We are all used to the idea in the UK that anyone who chooses to retire early or has to retire early due to ill health can still access the NHS.  But what is the position for the French and the French state healthcare system?

I've been trawling through books and the internet and can't find anything definitive but have picked up a few anecdotes here and there which suggest that early retirement for the majority of French is not as straightforward as it is in the UK.

My simplistic understanding of the French system so far is :

French employees pay into a variety of health and social welfare insurance schemes based on their occupation;

The self employed likewise; 

The unemployed and incapacitated may have previous cover from employment but if this cover expires or income is low they become affiliated to CMU base;

The French state retirement age is 60;

There are a number of occupations in the public sector which allow for early retirement on a favourable basis and allow for ex employees to remain in the state healthcare scheme until state retirement age is reached and healthcare cover become automatic;

The unemployed or long term sick retain healthcare cover until state retirement age guarantees cover; 

Employees and the self employed who take early retirement will receive a period of cover from the health and social welfare schemes they contributed to but after this ?

Does anyone have any knowledge of whether or not French early retirees are able to continue to benefit from the state healthcare system.  If so for how long?  If not what other arrangements do they need to make?  

Mr Cat

 

[Will]

http://www.travail.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques/fiches-pratiques/licenciement/convention-preretraite-totale-du-fne-1117.html 
gives the French position.

As I understand it, it has been possible under certain circumstances for the French to retire 'early' (i.e. from age 57). These circumstances include such things as the job being taken by somebody from the unemployment register, and there being suitable funding to pay the early retirer a reduced salary (from the employer's own resources, plus retirement schemes into which the employer would have paid, and plus government assistance) until he/she reaches pension age. Because such people will have paid into the French system for a good number of years there seems to be no question - at least at present - about their eligibility for health cover. And because there is a minimum age for 'pre-retirement' there is only a fairly short gap between their becoming 'inactive' and becoming fully retired. Not much different from the period of E106 cover that can be granted to British citizens moving to another European country.

However Nicolas Sarkozy is very much against the idea of early retirement and is drastically cutting any government aid for such schemes in France.

Many 'early retired' in France seem to be in that position due to health problems, so they are remunerated through unemployment benefits and/or work-based assurance schemes. (And at least in our part of France that doesn't seem to prevent quite a lot of them still working, au noir).

 

[Deimos]

I have a French friend who is true "early

retired". She did well with her own business and at around 50

did the same as many Brits - decided it was time to enjoy life,

stopped work, closed the company down and now lives from interest

from savings. She has normal state health cover and the normal

top-up policy. I do not know if she gets the state health cover

through the CMU or some other mechanism but she definitely does not

have private insurance (other than the standard top-up policy).

Apparently she is totally unconcerned by these

changes as they will not affect her.

Ian

[gillian]

Does anyone have any knowledge of this situation?

Can an English woman married to a French pensioner get affliated to the CMU as his dependant?

My French husband has just started receiving a very small French pension, because he did his military service here, and has been refused an E121 by Newcastle even though he spent most of his working life in England.  If he had an E121 I would have been included in it I believe.

Things are getting very complicated.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[tinabee]

This is intriguing and possibly worrying. Why would anyone be refused an E121 if they are entitled to a UK state pension?  Does anyone know?

[Glyn]

Deimos,

That is very interesting about your French friend as if there is some hope that after 5 years of residency British inactifs must be treated in the same way as French inactifs we must be sure we understand what French inactifs are entitled to.

Is there any way of finding out if your friend gets her state health cover by contributing to the CMU.

Glyn

[gillian]

Apparently there is a rule that if you receive a pension in your country of residence then your are not entitled to an  E121.  This doesn't affect British retiring to another county on an E121.  Sorry if I worried anyone.  I just wondered if French women who retire early can claim on their husbands affiliation to the CMU.

Gillian

 

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="Glyn"]

Deimos,

That is very interesting about your French friend as if there is some hope that after 5 years of residency British inactifs must be treated in the same way as French inactifs we must be sure we understand what French inactifs are entitled to.

Is there any way of finding out if your friend gets her state health cover by contributing to the CMU.

Glyn

[/quote]

I only see her occasionally and she is not a flood of info aboit her old business.  It was a true business employing people (because she ended up having to go to court to fight a compensation claim when one just stopped turning-up to work (ever) and she ended-up having to sack her.  If I get a chance I will ask but unlikely to be in the near future.

She is not short of money so would not be a long way from CMU-C and it would only be the CMU-B.

Ian

[Chris]

Just to add to growing informal info on French early retirees.  It is always difficult aking these personal questions, however my friends were 'agriculteurs'.  They made payments to their agriculteirs organisation which deals with health cover - as you may know, all occupations, including professions liberales etc, have similar organisations.  So, they are not strictly 'in' the CMU as we Brits and others are as they do not pay their cotisations to the CPAM via URSSAF.  However, in effect they are covered by the state for health, but cotisent in a different way, the amount they paid was in relation to the amount of land 'farmed'.  'She' was his 'ayant droit'.  Anyway,  'He' retred early but kept the minimum amount of land to maintain the title of agriculteur, and so continue making the minimum payments to keep their health cover.  Hope that helps a bit.

Chris

[Deimos]

[quote user="Chris"]Anyway,  'He' retred early but kept the minimum amount of land to maintain the title of agriculteur, and so continue making the minimum payments to keep their health cover.  Hope that helps a bit.

Chris

[/quote]

Now there is a thought.  Do you (or anybody) know what this minimum amount of land is.  I would think quite a few people have a bit of land with there property and it might just be a possibility that registering as a farmer might be possible and a low cost way to get health cover (and probably loads of spin-off benefits given the grants and handout available to farmers - but the health is the thought).

Ian

[caramac]

[quote user="Deimos"]

Now there is a thought.  Do you (or anybody) know what this minimum amount of land is.  I would think quite a few people have a bit of land with there property and it might just be a possibility that registering as a farmer might be possible and a low cost way to get health cover (and probably loads of spin-off benefits given the grants and handout available to farmers - but the health is the thought).

Ian

[/quote]

Nice idea Ian but not likely to be any use to most....

The minimum amount of land varies by department (natch!) but is usually at least 10 hectares of qualifying registered SAU land/prairie etc.  MSA  [:-))] are the caisse - if you have under this amount and/or work less than about 1200 hours pa in farming then if registered you have to pay "solidarity" contributions for which you get no benefits whatsoever.  If genuinely doing the hours to get into the system then you're into the usual level of cotisations eg € 3000 yr 1,  € 4500 yr 2 etc.

We actually want to work our land so are registered with MSA and pay the "solidarity".   We get nothing from MSA (apart from mountains of forms & paperwork[:(])  so we are with CPAM/CMU and currently biting our nails along with everyone else!

Hope this helps

NB:   The good old days of grants/subsidies/handouts are over - fast becoming an urban (rural?) myth![:D]

[Chris]

Ian

No I don't, and in fact I was posting from the angle of early retired Brits in France are not unique as there are  natives who do it and there is a mechanism to keep contributing to state health cover after early retirement, though I grant you, my friends' solution may well be stretching the rules.  I would doubt that the regulations are so sewn up that there is a link between any CAP benefits and healthcare benefits; one being EU and the other national. I am not subscribing to looking for 'scams' nor was I making any comment on those, native or others, who do. When someone has decided what the new regulations are to be,  then is the time to look at them carefully vis à vis equality with French nationals, assuming they are conform to existing EU law.  It seems to me that now is the time, as is happening by all the regular stalwarts of this forum,  to gather all known information, note whether it is fact or hearsay, and be sure that we know what questions to ask.  I also agree with the general consensus which appears to be emerging that HMG should not be allowed to escape scotfree from this mess, for it only toed the line and behaved like its partners Holland and Germany, we would not have been thrown into this position in the first instance..