Has the bubble burst yet?

[Jackie]

Following the announcement of new measures to persuade people to go to a particular generalist before being referred to a specialist, sounds horribly like the UK GP system, I had the following conversation with a senior surgeon who had recently operated on me.

He said that over 2000 surgeons were meeting shortly at Wembley in the UK as a form of a protest at the way they are treated by the French Government. It was not clear why they were going to the UK for this except that there was some mention of being hassled by the French police, on government instructions, if they met in France. He indicated that they had not had a pay rise for at least 18 years and that their pay was about one third of that enjoyed by UK surgeons. He was clearly very bitter about this and lamented the fact that very few new surgeons were appearing and that with an aging complement of current surgeons there would soon be a drastic shortage of suitably experienced people to perform operations of any sort. He pointed out that other countries, where waiting lists were lengthy, were sending their nationals to France for surgery and that he had had several people from Canada for life saving surgery following a diagnosis of cancer and where they might have had to wait for up to a year. I must admit that I dont quite understand why the UK and others have long waiting lists if their surgeons are paid so much more than French ones though no doubt someone will enlighten me! His fee for my half hour post operative check-up, examination and suture removal was the princely sum of 31 Euros. Can you imagine a UK consultant being happy with the same!

It would seem that the French health service, that those of us who have moved to France admire, is really on the verge of a serious collapse so I for one dont regret having to make my 8% contribution though it would appear that it is not enough! No doubt my thoughts are over-simplistic but for those of us in Gods waiting room, a long wait I hope, it is worrying.............John in Dept 79

[LesLauriers]

This link refers to the French Government's response:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3939289.stm

[Val_2]

When you see the piles of drugs prescribed for say just a sore throat, then you begin to wonder how long the system can stay in place. Luckily now generic medicines are gradually taking over and saving a few euros. Our mutuelle has been rising steadily over the past couple of years as well as its not like we have really used it that much either.

[Clarkkent]

LAST EDITED ON 31-Jul-04 AT 06:15 PM (BST)

It
>was not clear why they
>were going to the UK
>for this except that there
>was some mention of being
>hassled by the French police,
>on government instructions, if they
>met in France.


According to an item in a BBC broadcast, if they remained in France the French government could force them to work.

I also recall reading somewhere about a year ago, that the French government were looking admiringly at the financial management of the NHS.

[Merteuil2]

Today's 'Daily Telegraph' (31/7, sorry, I but don't have a link) ran an interview with a French surgeon, who lives and works in London. Better pay, better conditions, quality of life, etc. He lambasted the French health system. With the exception of the better pay, he sounded just like a British person talking about their move to France :>)

[Laotze]

My only experience of the French health system is limited and I can only judge it by that and hearsay evidence.
My opinion of the British Health Service is based on many years working for the Community Health Councils. If you want to know why there are waiting lists you need to see where the money goes to in the NHS. The system is overburdened with quangoes and talking shops. There are so many watchdog organisations overseeing various aspects of patient care that they overlap and cost the taxpayer billions. The fiasco that went on over the abolition of the Community Health Councils had to be seen to be believed. The system that has replaced it costs several times more. My doctor in the UK was a group practice and there were more administrative staff employed than medical staff. At the doctors surgery here there are no staff other than the doctor.
Doctors not coming into the profession in France? Have you any idea of the problems in the UK - so many consultants are foreign, there is a developing shortage of GPs (who also have several times the number of patients on their lists than their French counterparts. Have you any idea of the crisis within the dental service in the NHS?
I think that those of you who have lived in France a long time have little idea of what is actually happening in the Health Sevice in Britain - and if you listen to the propoganda being spouted by the government about how much things have improved then you have even less idea. Staitstics are manipulated by the hospital and practice managers, money is being poured into administration to make it all look rosy. I used to deal daily with the people (patients) who came in to try and get help to find a dentist, or why they could not get treatment or their treatment was bad or the hospital was so filthy they came out sicker than they went in. There are some fantstic doctors, nurses etc in the UK but they are smothered by a bureaucratic nightmare of a system. France may be suffering from the problems that most advanced countries are suffering in that advances in medicine mean that more ailments are able to be successfully treated which of course has a financial cost but unlike the UK much more money goes into the system and there is much less need for Patients Watchdogs and Fora etc as patients are free to go to the practitioner of their choice.

[Jackie]

Well I do seem to have started a hare running and from what has been posted it is clear that there is no single answer or formula to solve the obvious problems. As an engineer, amongst other things, I was often accused of convergent thinking, I think along with most everyone else, and maybe we want lateral thinking here. Is there any perfect or near perfect system anywhere in the world, I don't think so! I remember once on seeing my GP about a frequent strange heart rhythm during the night, being told to get out of bed and jump up and down a bit. "You will either drop dead or the problem will go away" he said. That was lateral thinking, the problem would be solved one way or another! Mind you he was one of the "Pull yourself together man and don't winge there's a good chap" school. I often think that people got better because they were afraid of their GPs, they would not dare not get better! Are these French doctors perhaps too sympathetic?...............John

[Jon 1]

I spoke to a specialist in France yesterday. He is German and working in the French system. He says he has just moved to France because Germany is about to change to a British type system and he does not want to work in this new environment.
He also went on to say that he does not agree that the French system will change much in at least the next 12 years, which is why he has made the move to work in France.
He also does not believe that French doctors are as disadvantaged as they may portray. He had an opportunity to work in the UK but was totally disinterested.
This is a doctor who is at or near the top of his field, not a rookie.