Children's Vaccinations

[Rose]

Can anyone help me with some information on vaccinations.

My sons school have asked for a photocopy of his vaccination record.  When we moved last year we supplied a copy in advance before we arrived and again took a photocopy of the letter with us when he started school.  Today they have asked us again for a photocopy of his record.  I'm wondering if we're supplying the wrong thing.  All I have is a letter from our old GP Practice that has the vaccincations and the dates written on it... should we be providing something else?

Also, is there somewhere where I can find translations for the vaccinations?  My record just shows things like hib/dip/tet/polio and per... single menc... MMR and so on.  I'm guessing this may not mean much to the school?

Any help appreciated [:)]

[odile]

all children in France have an official 'certificat de vaccinations' - and it must be up-to-date for children to enter school. I often wonder what happens to UK children whose paretns have chosen not to vaccinate- as it would mean their children wouldn;t be allowed into French schools. The idea to opt out of MMR etc, is unique to the UK, as most european countries require all vaccinations to be up to date in order to protect the majority. sorry I can't be more helpful in this particular case- but would be interested to hear.

[odile]

hib is against meningits  dip for diphteria   tet = tetanus   polio= polio!   per = pertussis (hooping cough)   single menc = meningitis C 

MMR  measles/mumps/rubella

[Clair]

[quote user="odile"]all children in France have an official 'certificat de vaccinations' - and it must be up-to-date for children to enter school. I often wonder what happens to UK children whose paretns have chosen not to vaccinate- as it would mean their children wouldn;t be allowed into French schools. The idea to opt out of MMR etc, is unique to the UK, as most european countries require all vaccinations to be up to date in order to protect the majority. sorry I can't be more helpful in this particular case- but would be interested to hear.[/quote]

My niece and nephew have not received a single vaccination yet have gone through the French schooling system. They are both at university now.

[odile]

really surprised about his Clair - I understood it was French Law and absolutely compulsory. did they go to private schools?

[odile]

just googled it - decret 52-247  28.02.1952   requires all children attending school to have an up-to-date vaccination certificate to be admitted to school. Versailles has a good guide in English. Tell us how you get on. OP would be really interested to hear from others, as it is a matter close to his heart.

[Clair]

[quote user="odile"]really surprised about his Clair - I understood it was French Law and absolutely compulsory. did they go to private schools?[/quote]

No they did not. Their mother is a nurse who decided not to have them vaccinated.

[odile]

but if it is LAW in France - how did they get away with it? the law clearly states all children must be vaccinated before entering school or within 3 months.

[Panda]

My son has been in french school for 4 years and I used to just give anyone who asked a copy of the page from his NHS health and vacinations book.  I got my doctor to check it when I came here and he needed just one vacination, I think second MMR type from memory.  

 I have asked often for a french equivalent book and certs for him but everyone I'ved asked says they are given at birth and what he's got is fine.  I do get odd looks and questions and so I've now  got  my doctor to complete a french form for submission to a holday club, this asked for all his vacinations and I present this in place of a certificate when asked, as it's in french and is signed by the doc everyone seems happy.. 

[odile]

Panda- from your experience- how do you think Clair's sister managed to het her kids into school (as well as kid's clubs, colonies de vacances, etc) without proof of vaccination?

The Law if there to protect the majority - most health professionals in the UK envy the French system as the law requires all children to be vaccinated.

[caro]

For once I have to say, good old Blighty! Many health professional are against these multiple jabs. It's no coincidence that many kids now are suffering from all sorts of chronic illnesses, as well as developing all sorts of allergies. I have two children, a 5 year old and a 10 year old and I have not had them vaccinated. They are both very healthy, more healthy than their vaccinated school friends.

[Rose]

Panda - I think this is just what I need.  My son has an appointment to see our Doctor this week as he has started to play rugby and needs a 'medical'... I'll take the record from my old UK GP and ask if our french doctor can help us with a new form.  I did give the school a photo copy of the UK form last week and they haven't come back with any questions?

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your comments!  Fingers crossed I can now resolve this.

[Panda]

[quote user="odile"]Panda- from your experience- how do you think Clair's sister managed to het her kids into school (as well as kid's clubs, colonies de vacances, etc) without proof of vaccination?
The Law if there to protect the majority - most health professionals in the UK envy the French system as the law requires all children to be vaccinated.
[/quote]

In my experience only when entering kids clubs are the vaccinations stated as required, at school the BCG was required and even that has been dropped around here.  When my son started school here no one asked about his vaccinations until he saw the school doctor about 6 months down the line even then she just noted any discrepancies, it was not a 'you must' situation.  I'm sure that if you are able to present a case for not wanting the vaccinations they could not refuse you entry into school.

 

[TWINKLE]

I have a couple of friends who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids and they are all very healthy and don't have any more colds and coughs than any other kids.  I also know a few teachers and have asked them what their views are on this and they just tend to shrug their shoulders and say "What can you do?"

None of them would report this to the authorities around here that's for sure.

[Busy Bee]

I don't think any of them are compulsory any more, it's just that the school/creche rules haven't caught up with the legislation.  Our doctor refused to give my little boy the BCG and promptly provided a note saying that his state of health prevented the giving of the vaccintion, which the garderie were very happy to accept (actually insisted on).

I think they only ask for the vaccination record for use in medical emergency eg it might be useful for the hospital to know if the tetanus is up to date.

As for the children who are not vaccinated and never get sick, I hope they are grateful that the majority of other children have had the recommended vaccinations, enabling these potentially fatal diseases to die out and for them not to have to worry about it!

[odile]

Exactement, BusyBee.

Rose, do you mind if we continue this (VERY important) discussion here - or would you prefer if I open another thread re/ vaccination, or not, and the Law in France?

Meilleures salutations   Odile (Godule).

[Rose]

Odile... no problems with the conversation... feel free to carry on.  It's important and a difficult choice for some parents... I've had the help I needed so I'm happy to hand over... sounds a good idea. [:)]

[odile]

[quote user="TWINKLE"]

I have a couple of friends who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids and they are all very healthy and don't have any more colds and coughs than any other kids.  I also know a few teachers and have asked them what their views are on this and they just tend to shrug their shoulders and say "What can you do?"

None of them would report this to the authorities around here that's for sure.

[/quote]

Thanks Clair - as it is such an important issue, and so close to my OH's heart. Twinkle, we are not talking about coughs and colds here, but absolutely deadly and debilitating diseases like meningitis and rubella, TB and polio, and others. I have been in very close contact with 100s of health professionals over past few years, and I don;t know of any who does not passionately believe in vaccination. In order for a society to be protected, around 90%+  must be vaccinated. I agree that it is an agonising time to make decisions for young parents with all the publicity. We went trhough it all recently with my little grandson. I remember an ex-neighbour of mine in the 70s when we were discussing our own children - she said 'I won;t have to vaccinate mine as you are all doing it - so my kids will be OK'. I remember being so shocked by her selfish and calculated attitude.

I have spent some time today looking at the legal facts about France on several websites (incl.  http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F724.xhtml

French law states clearly that vaccination against diphteria/tetanus/polio is compulsory for all children, with 6 months prison + E3750 for infrigement and that all schools have to check that records are up-to-date. Since July 07, the BCG against TB is no longer compulsory, but strongly recommended, as is the ROR (rougeolle, oreillons rubeole = MMR in UK) and hepatitis B.

Pour etre inscrits dans une collectivite (creche ou ecole) les enfants doivent etre obligatoirement vaccines contre les maladies suivantes diphterie, tetanos et poliomelite (souvent avec coqueluche). L'inscription a l'ecole maternelle puis l;ecole elementaire est soumise a la verification du respect des obligations vaccinales.

There is the possibility for your doctor to give written permission not to vaccinate if there is a strong medical contra-indication, but not by 'choice'.

it seems very strange that the BCG ag. TB has been dropped at the very time when this dreadful and deadly disease is making a come back in Europe. there have been many cases in the UK and France in past few years. In my very rural part of Switzerland, a teenager died of TB last year. So any child going to a creche or school in a large city is at risk. Rubella causes death of most babies born with it, deafness, meningitis, cataract, heart disease and many other disabilities in infants, children and terrible arthritis in adults.

All these are proven and now undisputable. Sadly some of these diseases are on the way back due to the poor take-up of vaccinations. Any vulnerable child or adult, due to poor immune system, even if vaccinated, is put at great risk by those who do not vaccinate. For the past 2 years measles outbreaks have made a come back in the UK.

[TWINKLE]

Odile!

I understand that this makes you angry - my own daughter has had all her jabs.  She was born with a genetic illness and will have to take medication every day for the rest of her life.  I'm glad the medicine exists otherwise she would be dead.  However, if people choose not to give their own kids the jabs - it's their choice.

We can't stop people smoking tobacco - they choose to inhale it knowing that it is potentially dangerous to their health.  If others decide that vaccination is bad for their kids - that's their choice surely?

[Rose]

Odile - for what its worth I do agree with you about how important the jabs are.  I spent a considerable amount of time thinking about the jabs for our son, in particular MMR but in the end opted for them.  But I do also understand why for some they are not acceptable.

It is so hard ... since my son had his jabs my work took me into the early years field and for the last 8 years I worked with children under five. I would agree that more and more we were seeing children with measle and worse german measles... such a dreadful illness.  The one that always surprises me is chicken pox, so many parents treat this as a very minor illness but it too can be very serious, one of our little ones had a stroke because of her chicken pox...

I think Twinks sums it up well... at the end of the day it has to be parental choice, would we really want it any other way?

 

 

[odile]

if one makes choices which only endangers one's one health, life, then it's fair enough (although increasingly we are all becoming aware that the cost of smoking/excess alcohol,fat, etc - is VERY expensive in health care- and therefore puts pressure on the whole system - and takes resources, doctors, nurses, theaters, drugs, etc, etc, from others). With vaccinations though, the choice of some endangers all, especially the weak. As mentionned above, chicken pox is a minor illness for most, but deadly for anybody who has a weakened immune system.

In medical schools up and down the country, the French system, whereby children have to be vaccinated by law, except in exeptional cases, has been held up as a great example of public responsibility for the sake of all. Choice and liberty are wonderful things, but I was always taught that liberty stops where it endangers others. It's not a question of me being angry, but of life or death for many. My daughters best friend lost her little girl to meningitis last year, and I personally know of other recent cases of death and permanent physical and mental disability. As said before, for a society to be protected, you need 90%+ vaccination- so if as nowq, you get more people opting out, then the whole of society, especially young children and the frail, are at increased risk.

[TWINKLE]

The MMR jab has had so much bad press - and with cause I think - about links to autism and Chron's disease so it's only natural that a lot of parents have become concerned about giving their kids the jab. 

Who decides which 90% of the population takes the 'risk' of administering it odile?  What is missing is more positive media coverage about the drug that will convince the public to have faith in the vaccination again.  Surely this is the responsibility of the government?

[odile]

The 'Press' makes huge amounts of money out of health scares - they do do have to take any responsibility. Doctors get inundated the next day whenever they make a ridiculous claim, by people making enquiries, etc- and it can undermine the doctor-patient trust for months and years, or forever. The Press have a lot to answer for.  The link with MMR has never been proven - recent research has highlighted that the link was made by a scientist being paid to prove the link and has been totally discredited. The link between major disability and death with most diseases vaccinated against has been (very sadly) proved over and over.

[Clarkkent]

As I understand it ...

Dr Andrew Wakefield, a gastroenterologist - not a paediatrician, nor a neurologist - was paid to act as an expert witness in a case involving twelve children in which he said that the children MAY have been damaged by the MMR vaccine. No proof, no real evidence, absurdly small sample size. A letter appeared in the Lancet, signed by a number of people, including Dr Wakefield, expressing concern. This appeared to have been picked up by a journalist, who used his creativity to make two and two make a very large number. Most of the consequences of this are well known. When it comes to protecting their children's welfare mothers believe the musings of a Grub Street hack to information from their GP. After all, thanks to the press, we know that every male person is a potential sexual pervert and no child is safe from their predations.

Incidentally, when they learned of the circumstances behind Dr Wakefield's letter, the other signatories withdrew their support.

[Rose]

Clarkkent... as far I understand it I would say that just about sums it up!  Has Dr Wakefield has his hearing yet and if so what was the result?  I wonder how he feels knowing the storm he created and the subsequent consequences?