Urgent Healthcare Needed

[Binky Boo]

Hello everyone, my elderly parents live in a rural location in Normandy. I'm sure my Dad has dementia, my Mum is very forgetful too and has trouble walking. We have been trying to get them back to live with us in England, but they won't hear of it. Is there any way we can set up homehelp/healthcare for them?, they have lived in France since 1993. Thank you.

[andyh4]

A good first port of call would be the assistant sociale at the local town hall (mairie). Do you or your parents speak French? There is a good chance that the assistant may not or not to a standard where they will feel comfortable using it.

[NormanH]

Longer term you may need to go into putting them sur tutelle which involves them being supervised for their own good:

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2120

[Binky Boo]

I don't speak any french at all, my mum's french is limited. I'm worried because they are very isolated, there are no shops or anything in the area, driving is essential, but my dad is in not fit state to drive.

[Binky Boo]

Thank you.

[NormanH]

I think that sous tutelle in English would be something like being a ward of court if that is possible for adults.

In France it is for vulnerable or confused people., and covers things like their financial affairs and health care

There are two categories. I give it in French since you may have to know the terms but there is a Google translation below:

 (for health)

Curatelle

En matière de santé, la personne sous curatelle reçoit elle-même

l'information sur son état de santé et consent seule aux actes médicaux.

Le curateur n'a pas à intervenir, mais peut la conseiller.

Tutelle

En matière de santé, la personne sous tutelle doit recevoir une

information adaptée à son degré de compréhension quant aux conséquences

et aux risques d'un examen, d'un traitement ou d'une intervention... Le

tuteur reçoit également une information précise de la part du médecin.

Le majeur en tutelle peut refuser un acte, le médecin est tenu de

respecter ce refus, sauf danger immédiat pour sa vie.

Ward

In health, the person in care  receives information on his condition and agrees only to medical procedures. The curator does not have to intervene, but can advise.

Placed under a guardian

In health, the person under guardianship must receive information tailored to their level of understanding about the consequences and risks of an examination, treatment or intervention ... The guardian also receives accurate information the physician. The incapacitated person can refuse an act, the doctor must respect this refusal, except immediate danger to his life.

[idun]

Yes contact the assistante sociale and let them get on with it.

NH's

link says it all, and if your parents refuse help, then unless they are a

danger to themselves, I do not see how you can do much.

As I

have been having problems myself over the last few months I sympathise.

I have now come to terms with the status quo and realise that my

worrying is a futile act and not only has been affecting my health but

my  family too.

[minnie]

Can you not at least try to get them to move into a small property in a village/small town with facilities. Perhaps you'd find that if you had a chat with your Mum on her own she'd see the sense in it. You could all then work on your Dad. You'll probably find that it's only one of them who is resistent to change and the other doesn't want to rock the boat. I can see that getting them back to UK is impossible. We live out of town and I'm now saying to my husband that if either one of us couldn't drive there could be problems.

[Hereford]

Binky Boo:  I feel so very sorry for you in this situation.  The Assistante Sociale (AS) will certainly be able to help but whan I needed to get help at home for my parents it took weeks to get a home visit from the AS and then 2 months to get a decision on a care package and how much they would have to pay themselves.  You parents will have to fill out a form detailing their income and the amount you get (called APA) is based on income.  The amount per hour is not enough to pay helpers in full. We did get it sorted out and found two English carers to help. We we did need a Tutelle etc in the end as my Dad was completely well and any discussion of Dementia is always done with members of the family present.  They had help at home until the point at which my mother was accepted into a Maison de Retraite (she had no idea of who she was nor recognised anyone by then).  I won't go into Maisons de Retraite in this posting but that is another whole new ball game.

Does your father see a Dementia consultant? You or your mother should ask for a referral.

I am in Normandy (which is of course a big department...) - where do your parents live.  If you do not want to post the name of the village online you can message me or email from this forum.  The carers we used are still around!

Mrs H

[Binky Boo]

Thank you, my parents live in St. Aubin Des Preaux, not in the village itself, about a mile away. As far as I know my dad hasn't been seen by a consultant, but he definitely has dementia, we brought them over to stay with us last week, hoping we could get them to stay, he didn't really know who we were.

[idun]

And you let them go back?

Trouble is that you will hit confidentiality and if they do not want you to know anything you will have to go to court to get some rights.

I hope that you have already got in touch with the Assistante Sociale, or at least left a message, the sooner the better.

[Binky Boo]

[quote user="idun"]And you let them go back?

Trouble is that you will hit confidentiality and if they do not want you to know anything you will have to go to court to get some rights.

I hope that you have already got in touch with the Assistante Sociale, or at least left a message, the sooner the better.

[/quote]

sadly we had to, we are in the process of getting power of attorney.

[idun]

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/mental-capacity-international-aspects/

Read this, because I am not sure if doing getting a LPA in the UK will help you in any way as it mentions getting it done before 2007. AND does your solicitor really know the rules anyway, ie would the french accept it. 

And as you saw from NH's links, people can still refuse things even with the tutelle type things in place. Sounds like you need help from an international law firm too.

I know this is all bloody awful, been a nightmare for me recently and just about all my friends have a living parent in their 90's and most of them are problematic.

Pity you could not have hidden their tickets and just kept telling them that they were leaving 'next week' and then the next and the next until you were sorted out[:(]

[minnie]

Idun's spot on here. My oh and I have made power of attorneys here in France with the notaire, each for the other, in case one of us looses mental capacity. However if we needed to activate it we'd still have to go through the French courts to have it authorised. When making these, whether in UK or in France, the signatory, i.e. your father, should still have mental capacity. You do need advice from a French avocat I reckon, unless you can get them back to UK even for a prolonged holiday.

[Hereford]

I agree with Idun and Minnie, I would doubt that a UK P of A would be of any use at all in France.

We did not go with a Tutelle etc for my mother as we did not need it to pay for her Home fees (the current account was joint with my dad) and it was clearly a lot of hassle with courts. We were able to get help at home etc without anything in place but unlike your parents my mother had completely "lost it" but dad was 100% OK mentally.

We are too far away from you for the carers we had to be any help and would agree with earlier posts that you need to be in contact with the Assistante Sociale via their Mairie a.s.a.p.

Bon courage

Mrs H.

[idun]

The other problem is that it is France and the carers, I would imagine be french and french speakers. Won't this be a problem too if your mother after all these years in France does not speak very good french?

I mention that as a generality, as it just highlights the necessity to learn the language in the country one moves to permanently, although personally even that 'argument' does not convince me.As for all I speak french as does my husband, we left France upon retirement as we did not want to juggle with french in our dotage, not knowing if we would remember it, if we started with dementia etc.

[minnie]

You've got that right too idun. I've always said to oh if either of us borders on dementia of any sorts then it needs to be an english speaking community. Generally, I can converse comfortably in French on a day to day basis, but if I'm under pressure e.g. the twice that I've been in hospital, then it all goes by the wayside.....Any sort of dementia where you're in a foreign country is likely to create isolation.

[Hereford]

My mother was almost 90 when we started having carers for her at home (still with my dad) and we were lucky enough to find two English ladies (one SRN and one qualified carer) who looked after her. They are much in demand! With an APA one can pay an agency who will almost certainly send French staff but we opted to pay by Cheque emploi (one can choose) so were able to employ whom we liked.  If one pays by C. E. then copy payslips have to be sent to the appropriate dept.for them to be sure the allowance is spent. If it isn't they deduct money the following month. We got the full cost of "inco" pads too.

A letter/report from a doctor is needed to get APA. This shows the level of need and is send direct to the authorities.

Mrs H.