French "Off the shelf" equipment for UK TV?

[Steve Last]

Can I ask some fairly basic questions, which if answered I would then

edit so it could be added to update Will’s FAQs page: that seems to stop in mid

sentence and appears to date from about 4 years ago so may well be a bit out of

date by now?  I read the recent thread on

HD TV but am still VERY confused.

I would like to update my current setup but not being a sat

user in the UK am somewhat bamboozled by some of the terminology in English let

alone in French - anyone remember the Rowan Atkinson sketch in which he htook the

role of a typical "PC World" type shop assistant, mercilessly taking the p*** out of Mel

Smith as an uninformed customer? Well I’m Mel Smith in that sketch.

My setup at present: have a tube TV with built in VCR; second-hand

sky box and a dish; separate DVD player. 

We don’t want any subscription channels and the current box gets the

channels we want without a card in the receiver. These are BBC1-4, ITV 1-4, Ch

4 and 5 etc., thatg is most of the UK Freeview channels. I also have Free.fr

broadband but no TV connection through that at the moment.  

I want to move to: flat screen TV with ability to watch one

UK channel and record another; to programme recordings ahead of time; to watch

a DVD while recording. In essence, this is the facility we have in the UK with

Freeview on the TV and using a DVD/HDR with its own Freeview tuner.  Question is “Can I do this with equipment

bought off the shelf in France?”

Looking quickly at local stores I can see all the apparent components,

but I don’t know if they will talk to one another as all the brands are different.

But first I need some clarification of terminology so I don’t make a total

$%^&&( of myself in any shop I go into!

1)     

What does TNT actually stand for? One version I

know is the courier company, is the other “Television Numerique Terrestrial” or

something similar which I take to be the equivalent of UK Freeview.

2)     

What does LNB stand for?   

Next thing is about some specific example items  

3)     

Metronic brand “Decoder digital terrestrial” –

this I take it would be the equivalent of a Freeview box and doesn’t take the

satellite input.

4)     

NEOM brand “Decoder TNT double tuner” – is this

also a Terrestrial Digital box like (3) above?

5)     

Iotronic brand "PVR/Adapteur TNT 2 tuners" – again

presumably cannot take a satellite input?

6)     

Metronic brand "Satellite analogue double tuner" –

this would not read UK satellite signals?

7)     

Schaub Lorenz "Adapteur TNT hard drive" – similar to

(5)?

8)     

Strong "SRT6410 TNTSAT" box – says it can access

Astra satellite at 19.2E – is this what my dish would be pointing to at the

moment?

With our UK PVR box with a freeview tuner, plus another tuner in the TV, we

can watch one programme while recording another, using just the one coax cable from the ordinary

roof antenna which we haven’t touched – just one lead comes from it.  Can you do the same thing with the one lead

here from the satellite dish?

In the UK, the programme guide that shows via our (new) UK Panasonic

DVD/HDR has a different appearance to that which we get on the new (Panasonic) TV

alone, although both are the same brand.  Is part of the guide built into whatever is doing

the decoding? – obviously the data comes in the signal but does a French box “read”

UK programming guide data correctly?    Martin

Watkins kindly noted in a different thread that “Any digital sat (DSat)

receiver is now capable of tuning into all the BBC channels and all of ITV and

ch 4 and ch 5” but does it automatically find them when the antenna is plugged

into it?

I guess in an ideal world, someone would be able to tell me “just

get a “N brand” box which is a satellite receiver cum DVD cum recorder, plug

your existing antenna in one end and your new “N brand” TV in the other and

away you go" ….. but I suspect it’s not like that!

Steve

PS sorry about formatting stuff below, it seems to come because I originally wrote it in MS Word and I can't find any way to remove it as it doesn't show in the edit window.

[Martin963]

Well I can start off answering (most) of the questions,   but I don't have a hard disc/flat screen so I hope others can fill in the gaps I leave

1)   Television Numerique Terrestre.  Yes,  it's the equivalent of Freeview,  broadcast on UHF from an ever-increasing network of transmitters.   Almost all British sourced boxes will work in France if there's a signal available,  although a roof aerial is highly recommended.   However,  things move fast and France already has three HD TNT channels.   I don't think there are any Freeview boxes in Britain with HD yet,  although I stand ready for correction on that.

2)   Low noise block   ( there are other explanations,  and satellite is notorious for "silly" non scientific names like enhanced,  universal,   etc,  so I guess someone may argue my explanation,  fair enough!)

3)   Indeed

4)   Yes,  but it would have two ouptuts and two tuners so that you can watch one thing while feeding the other programme from the second tuner to an external recorder of some sort.

5)   I would think so,  see 8)

6)   It wouldn't be any use for British sat signals,   but is useful until Nov 2011 for getting the main French channels off Altantic Bird 3.

7)   Yes,  TNT with a hard disc

8)   This is a box for a scheme (run by Canalsat) that allows people who don't have conventional TNT reception ('cos their transmitter hasn't yet been equipped) to watch the 18 or so channels via satellite.   All provided under the tenet of égalité,  (ie all citizens must enjoy the same rights and services).    Because of copyright fussing the sat version is scrambled and this box (of which I have two in England) is sold with a suitable card for a one off payment of €139 which gives you the TNT channels + FTA Astra 1 for four years,   with (we hope) the option for a new card eventually.    This box will NOT work on any other satellite (I've tried) but is extremely useful doing the job for which it was designed.  

[Martin963]

In some cases you can daisy chain two sat receivers together (if one of them has an IF OUT (which looks the same as the LNB IN terminal)) and provided that both the desired programmes have the same polarisation and are in the same frequenct band.    So you could watch two V's with Hiband or two V's in low band,   or two H's in high band etc.

So it looks like    LNB----------->  1st sat receiver ------------>  2nd sat receiver.

I once had to do this (for reasons I've forgotten) and I had to use a "different" ITV region to usual in order to match the band and pol to the BBC programme I also needed.   It also worked fine in the days of TPS as they used all low-band V transponders.    In the diagram above the 2nd receiver controls the band (via 22 kHz) and the pol (`13/18 V switching),  and if there's a conflict the 1st sat receiver simply loses its signal.

As you can see  it's not really satisfactory for most things,   much better to get a multi output LNB with separate cables down,  a bit like a Sky PVR.

[Martin963]

I'm not sure about EPG appearances,  although as you surmise the "framework" for the display is presumably in the box and is "filled" with the incoming data.   However,  both the Sky EPG and the freesat EPG are proprietary,   and will only display on the boxes for which they are designed;  (in the case of Sky and freesat the data is transmitted on different frequencies,   and getting theirs to work reliably was one of the big delays on freesat,  as Sky didn't want to share their version,  and so freesat had to design from scratch,  which was time consuming and costly).

If you use the "wrong" box or an off the shelf job they normally just display NOW and NEXT info which is part of the MPEG 2 DVB-S spec;  the proprietary systems build on that very basic foundation.

[Martin963]

A non proprietary box does have to be instructed to scan when you first bring it home,  although a list of channels may already be in it ,  already out of date as often as not.

Normally the scan works fine,  although sometimes particular transponders are missed and you have to do a manual add.    In this case a machine with "blind scan" can be useful as it simply starts at the beginning and inches its way through the frequencies and stores each one with its channels.   Which can be very time consuming,   so a lot of boxes just have a "master list" of transponders stored for each sat,  and when you ask the box to scan it just looks at the frequencies in the memory,  so if one or more is missing you have to manually update the master list and then get it to scan anew on the updated frequencies.    Some boxes actually look at a beacon frequency on the sat position and update the master list from that,  although I've never seen that work totally reliably.

[Martin963]

I can't help with the last question,  although I suspect (and hope) you will get some advice.   At the BBC we were always forbidden to recommend any technical equipment (this was back in the 1980's) and although this was for commercial reasons it was d*mned good advice for many other reasons!

If I've merely generated more questions then please bat them back,   it would be good to get the FAQ's updated (I'd wondered whether to offer but as I said earlier I'm not equipped with some of the moderner stuff,   in fact I must be the only person in the world who watches the BBC HD channel on a 21 " CRT!!

Can I have a credit ..............................  please!!

[Boiling a frog]

Instead of going thro your list of question .

In simple terms

If you wish to watch UK television in France none of the items mentioned in your orginal post are suitable for the purpose.

 

[Steve Last]

Thanks VERY much Martin, that has filled in some of the many blanks in my knowledge....  will read again and digest!!

Steve

[Steve Last]

Thanks boiling a frog, that is what I had pretty much concluded after actually writing it all down!

[Boiling a frog]

What you need is a TV buy in France or the UK makes little difference unless you suddenly develop an overpowering desire to watch French TV in which case better buying one in France

Buy a Sky plus box from Ebay or the like.

Change your LNB on your sattelite dish for a 2 or 4 exit LNB (this with your Sky plus box will allow you to watch one programme while recording another.

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/satellite.html

Gives an explanation.

Any DVD player connected properly will allow you to watch a DVD while recording a TV programme.

[Anton Redman]

I have avoided duplicating Martin’s excellent comments. Sorry if the post sounds either patronising or pedantic and took too long to post as weather to good for sitting at PC and therefore overtaken by other postings :

 

If I was trying to recommend a system for somebody who had no desire to get into the all the technical details this is what I would suggest :

 

If you have a dish which is black mesh and wider than it is high then you will need a twin or more LNB, thing the cables run from which sits on the end of the arm. Provided you are careful and lucky this should simply replace your existing LNB with no adjustments. Twin LNBs are not being manufactured so you will need a quad LNB. These are available in the UK by mail order or from the French based companies who specialise in Sky TV.

 

http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page1.htm

 

If you have a French sourced dish which is normally grey or off white plastic or aluminium and it taller than it is wide. Then you should be able to source a replacement at any Hypermarket. Make sure you purchase an LNB with both outlets aimed at the same place. They will also have in stock LNBs with 6 degrees of separation which were used when there were two Satellite clusters serving France

 

You want one of these :

http://www.transplanet.fr/boutique/liste_article_cat.asp?fam=4&cat=689

 

Not one of these :

http://www.transplanet.fr/boutique/liste_article_cat.asp?fam=4&cat=95

 

You will also need a second satellite co axial cable all the way to the dish. There is a solution to this but it involves equipment and both ends of the Cable and is less reliable and more expensive than a second cable.

 

I would retain my existing DVD player to watch one DVDs

 

I would buy a Humax HD PVR for freesat. Argos and John Lewis should not have them in  stock in the UK.  It should be future proof  and ir should work straight out of the box. There is I believe a review oin this forum.

 

http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page14.htm

 

Thi above is the closest to plug and play but involves sourcing some equipment from the UK or paying a premium to one of the French based companies specialising it UK TV.

 

There are a number of other solutions which would work :

 

Second sky box and a DVD recorder and Phantom PVR

 

http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/phantom.htm

 

is probably the cheapest solution but needs the remote control receivers in the Sky boxes masking. The ability to series link then auto view make this a more attractive option than it first seems. I have my second digibox and the recorder in another room and use slipper net to walk the recorder DVD to the main TV I we want to watch it.in the living room

 

French purchased fully programmable PVR with the hard disk. The down side of this is that you are unlikely to buy one with all the UK TV and radio stations pre programmed and they are a bit of a pain to set up. You may also have to re input parameters when channels move satellites. The Electronic Programme Guide will probably be limited to showing and next and it will therefore be difficult to programme say all episodes of John Adam as auto view which you can do with a Sky digibox. I gave up using my French purchased digital satellite receiver and substituted a second sky box because although it worked it was not worth the hassle

 

You dish is pointing at Astra 2,3 and 4 Euriobird 1 which are 28.2 or 28.5 East . Not Astra 1 on 19.2 E

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Martin963]

Thanks Anton for filling in the bits I missed.

I perhaps ought to add (for the benefit of anyone non-technical coming on this thread "out of the blue") that when I said earlier that almost all British sourced Freeview boxes would work in France for TNT it should be made clear that they will work only in the sense that they will receive FRENCH TNT channels,  but not British Freeview ones once they've moved from Britain to France.

I'm probably being ultra-cautious by labouring the point,   but if you want British TV in France then you need to do it via satellite;  each country's "freeview" or "TNT" coverage ends soon after you cross the border (or the English channel!) as the UHF signals involved will not travel far beyond the optical horizon.

But you all knew that already;   as I say I mention it just for the benefit of any future FAQ assimilation.

[Tim]

I would also point out that a Sky + box will only continue to record if you are currently a Sky subscriber. I have read of many people who hav been disappointed to find that the machine doesn't do what's expected of it once the suscription is stopped.

As Anton says - the freeview PVR for the free channels is, in my opinion, the best option. I'm certainly very pleased with mine.

 

Regards - Tim

[Steve Last]

Many thanks for all the advice, I will reflect on it all! I had been about to opt for the secondhand sky box until I read that Tim, as I don't have or want a Sky subs that was a good tip, so I will probably accept that the basic answer to my question is no, it's not available off the shelf in France. I'll take Anton's advice and source a FREESAT box in the UK for our next return by car, and change the sat dish head for the one with 2 cables.

Thanks again,

Steve

[Steve Last]

One last naive tech question:  we have 2 freeview receivers (one TV and one PVR) in the UK: both get their input from the same coax cable from the antenna in the loft and work OK. Why does a satellite system need a double LNB with 2 separate coax cables to achieve the same thing? Aren't the signals much the same in both cases and deciphering them similar?

Steve.

[Martin963]

Because the sat receiver is actually powering the LNB (and mixing two power supplies onto one cable will cause "expensive smoke");  additionally the voltage level sent up the cable (13 or 18 V) tells the LNB which polarisation to select (whilst still powering the little amp in the LNB);  additionally a  22 kHz tone (a high pitched electronic whistle in fact) is sent/not sent up the cable to tell the LNB whether to use a local oscillator frequency of 10.6 or 9.75 GHz.

All these signals can contradict eachother,  and/or cause failure of the power supplies if mixed together.

None of that applies for terrestrial TV,  apart from some sig amps which are powered "from the bottom" by ONE dedicated unit.

A dual LNB is simply two LNB's in one unit,   with all the voltages and switching signals kept entirely separate.

Aren't you glad you asked??!!

[Steve Last]

Thank you Martin.   Excellent concise explanation which shows that despite looking similar the two systems have virtually nothing in common at all. <Aren't you glad you asked??!!> Yes, that will stop me generating the expensive smoke!

ATB

Steve

[Martin963]

It was Barry Fox's expression,  "expensive smoke".

Formerly known by the name Adrian something or other,   he was the scourge of dodgy hi-fi/technical "B-S" and for many years provided valuable journalistic material to the audio/video press.

He was also big enough to descibe how he had - in the early days of sat - produced a little puff of E.S.    And written off the two boxes concerned.

[Anton Redman]

Barry Fox is I think still writing for PCW (Personal Computer World) and What Satellite.

 

[Martin963]

Glad to know he's still in business Anton.   I've given up with Whatsat,  I bought a copy after it was revamped and thought it was worse than ever.

Much prefer Telesatellite mag,  more technical,  less froth and gossip.

But Barry is always worth reading.