ADSL master filter - not working, ever

[Araucaria]

We had completely new wiring, electricity and phone in our barn conversion, all done by a proper electrician.

The France Telecom phone line arrives downstairs, goes into a little box marked DTI, and then from there we have four separate internal phone cables, each one going through a conduit to a separate phone socket in different places in the house. Where the line arrives, is, naturally, nowhere near where we keep the computers and livebox: those are on the next floor up and some way away.

All the phone sockets are RJ11 ones - ie the little square ones, not the big "T" shaped ones. This type of system is supposed to be wired with an ADSL master filter. As far as I know you cannot buy off the shelf the individual phone filters wired through an RJ11 socket (but see below...).

As I understand it, this is the way the master filter is supposed to work: the phone line comes into the house and goes into the master filter box immediately. There are two exits from the ADSL master filter: one goes to all the RJ11 sockets that are being used for phones, the other to the RJ11 socket which the livebox is plugged into.

Getting slightly more technical, and I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, the "ADSL" exit from the master filter isn't filtered at all: it's only the voice telephone lines that get filtered. The master filter we bought - off the shelf in Mr Bricolage but it was this one - has an RJ11 socket for the arriving phone line, a second next to it for the house voice telephone lines, and a third on the side for the modem. It also has two internal block connectors, one for the arriving phone line, and the other for the house voice telephones: there isn't a block connector for the adsl line - instead the instructions say you simply connect this straight to the incoming line from France Telecom (because it isn't filtered).

We have tried connecting this ourselves. The original electrician didn't fit a filter when the rest of the installation was finished (all the outgoing wires from the box downstairs were simply connected together), and he was hard to get hold of after we'd paid him (quel surprise!). I thought, this really can't be hard. But it had me cursing for a couple of hours, as it simply didn't work. We finally managed to call in the electrician, and he spent another afternoon going over what we'd done, but with the same results (though without the cursing).

With the filter wired as shown in the very simple diagram that came with the master filter, and with the modem in operation, the phone doesn't work at all. If the modem is unplugged it will work. We've been reduced to chaining phone connections: an RJ11 in the wall socket going to an old style floating "T" shaped socket, an ADSL filter in that, and an old style "T" shaped plug to an RJ11 plugged into the phone. That's ugly and cluttered (but it works), but we hardly want to do that for each of the phone connections (there are extensions on each of three floors).

Has anyone had any success with an ADSL master filter like the one we've used, or with a different type?  How would we know if ours is faulty? Any suggestions what might be wrong? France Telecom - needless to say - disclaim any responsibility. It's our problem they say. And our electrician (like us) is baffled.

 

[pachapapa]

[IMG]http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5580/sanstitre2zp6.jpg[/IMG]

[dave21478]

How the fuck is an alarm wiring plan plucked randomly from the internet supposed to be any help to the chap?

 I never once had any success with an RJ style master and filter, so ended up with an old T-type phone connection and the big basic filter plugged into that. I found a couple of microfilters from UK that used RJ plugs, and they were no use either in the new sockets.

I honestly don't know why it didn't work, but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, so just fitted the old style sockets and left it at that.

[Quillan]

Reading the OP and using the link he has given there seem to be three different units to choose from so the first question is has you got the right one? I say this because quite often people in these DIY shops when it comes to the more technical stuff often don't know and have had no training.

Ignoring the alarm and the fact that Pachapapa's drawing shows old style connectors the principle is the same and is correct. Firstly the FT line enters the house and is presented as a wall box with a RJ11 socket, there should be no extensions connected to this either by hard wire or plug. I would think that you had a small cable in the filter box with RJ11 plugs on both ends and this should be connected to one of the red sockets on the box and the other end to the master socket. The cable from the ADSL box is then plugged in to the side socket (again RJ11) as shown.

Having not seen the new type of system I have to assume that all the phone extensions are connected in series and that at one end, near the incoming FT socket, there is a plug on a cable which should be plugged in to the green socket. If its not and is hard wired you need to disconnect the extension wires and buy an RJ11 socket , place it adjacent to FT socket and buy another RJ11 to RJ11 cable.

On the other hand if this new system is wired like data cabling then each extension comes back individually to a point near the FT socket, this system is often referred to as a star configuration in data cabling terms. Without the aid of some sort of 'patch panel' it would only be possible to have one extension working at a time. As I said I have no seen this type of system so am on very shaky ground here.

Just reading your posts and to make it clear there is only one ADSL filter used and that must be the first thing connected to the FT incoming line and all extensions feed of that as does the ADSL box.

[Araucaria]

Thanks Dave and PPP. For what it's worth, we weren't quite able to cable as shown in the diagram PPP posted (much the same as the one I have), because it's not possible to plug the modem into the RJ11 socket on the filter. The phone wires arrive downstairs in the room with the washing machine (where all the services arrive, water, electricity & phoine), but the computer and modem are upstairs where they won't accidentally get spin-dried.

So we've used one of the internal phone cables. We could have put an RJ11 plug on the end (if I knew how - and it needs a special tool I think), but the wiring diagram suggests you simply add the modem pair of wires to the filter inlet for the France Telecom service: ie in the diagram, going into the same place as the "arrivee telephonique". In fact that's not possible, the "bornier" is of a type that you can only put a single pair of wires into, because it's one of those self-stripping, gripping ones. If you put two wires in, one always falls back out. But we joined the wires and put them in, and it didn't work.

I could post a scan of the diagram but it's really tiny, an A5 sheet with three different suggested configurations. One thing I do see as different in my diagram is that the modem port on the filter is described as an RJ11 port, rather than a RJ45 one as shown on PPP's diagram. But as far as I remember, the modem (Livebox) cable is RJ45 at the modem end, and RJ11 at the wall socket end (but I could be wrong - I couldn't swear I'm still using the original cable).

PPP, do you in fact have a master filter and does it work?

I'm beginning to feel, with Dave, that life's too short!

[Araucaria]

Oh well, here's the diagram (it's a clickable thumbnail, on the basis that most people will be too bored to wait for a large image to load!)

[URL=http://s585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/?action=view&current=masterfilter.jpg][IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/th_masterfilter.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

We tried to do the wiring as shown in the third picture.

[Quillan]

You do need a 'punch down' tool if you are going to hard wire but there is no need as they are showing you how to connect with the old style 'T' sockets and you have the new RJ11 one. Go to your local shops and you can buy a cable with RJ11 plugs on both ends. Plug one end in to the FT phone socket and the other end in to the 'line in' socket on the filter.

You can get two wires in to the punch down block but you need the tool (known as a Krone tool). You can buy a professional one or you can get cheap plastic ones that will do about 100 connections before you bin it for a couple of Euros. By the way it does not 'strip' the cable as such and there is no need to strip the cable either, just place over the connector and press down with the tool.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="dave21478"]How the fuck is an alarm wiring plan plucked randomly from the internet supposed to be any help to the chap?



 I never once had any success with an RJ style master and filter, so ended up with an old T-type phone connection and the big basic filter plugged into that. I found a couple of microfilters from UK that used RJ plugs, and they were no use either in the new sockets.
I honestly don't know why it didn't work, but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, so just fitted the old style sockets and left it at that.

[/quote]

The diagram whilst showing an alarme as being included in the circuit is for reasons of completeness of possible configuration; it also notes in french, obviously beyond your 'ken, that the item is OPTIONAL. I would be obliged if it is possible for you to take a copy from your printer and join the two black wires together with a large black biro.

The second paragraph of your post suggests strongly that your attempts at installing a master filter belie alack of comprehension of the basics of the FN C 15-100 rather than any inherent fault in the equipment supplied.

As for the T connections to the phones, these are as Q notes purely for illustrative purposes, an RJ 11 socket or indeed TWO connecting bits of a domino would function perfectly; assuming of course that the internal lines are connected with compatibility to the grey and white wires entering the OPs residence. POTS,POTS and more POTS.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="Quillan"]

You do need a 'punch down' tool if you are going to hard wire but there is no need as they are showing you how to connect with the old style 'T' sockets and you have the new RJ11 one. Go to your local shops and you can buy a cable with RJ11 plugs on both ends. Plug one end in to the FT phone socket and the other end in to the 'line in' socket on the filter.

You can get two wires in to the punch down block but you need the tool (known as a Krone tool). You can buy a professional one or you can get cheap plastic ones that will do about 100 connections before you bin it for a couple of Euros. By the way it does not 'strip' the cable as such and there is no need to strip the cable either, just place over the connector and press down with the tool.

[/quote]

Thanks Quillan. The only RJ11 socket on the FT "entry" box is the one marked "test", but I agree there's no reason why I shouldn't use one of the many RJ11/RJ11 cables I've bought to connect from it as you suggest - mind you my shortest cable is a meter long and the distance from the France Telecom "entry" box to the filter is about 10cm.

There would then be only one set of wires in the punch-down block for the "line in" to the filter (they would be the ones going to my modem). I do know that the block doesn't actually strip the wires, just cuts into the insulation - it's like those dreadful connectors you could buy in the old days for installing a car radio. It often severed the wire!

Right now it's all domino connectors, and a lot of spaghetti everywhere. Trouble is, even with everything connected the way the diagrams say, the filter didn't/doesn't work.

Does PPP have a working master filter I wonder? If so which one?

I also wonder whether it matters which way round each pair of wires is connected. Neither I nor the electrician troubled about that. As the RJ11 plugs aren't symmetrical (there's only one way you can put them into the socket) I wonder whether this might not be the root of the problem.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Araucaria"]Oh well, here's the diagram (it's a clickable thumbnail, on the basis that most people will be too bored to wait for a large image to load!)

[URL=http://s585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/?action=view&current=masterfilter.jpg][IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/th_masterfilter.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

We tried to do the wiring as shown in the third picture.
[/quote]

The DTI will have been installed by FT OK.  I usually dont get involved with hybrid ancient /modern systems, it is to controversial.[:)]

Have a gander at the pdf file below which is based on the current NF C 15-100 regulations for a "domotique"/residential environment with RJ 45 sockets.

http://1.download.maison-domotique.com/michaud/VDI_michaud.pdf

Telephone installs should be simple as FT uses a POTS system with ONLY TWO WIRES used at entry to DTI the grey one and the white one; I always turn all the cables for the other three pairs back and wrap them in insulation tape to get them out of the way.

All done by a proper electrician; not many english electricians around my area who are au fait with FN C 15-100.

[pachapapa]

As everyone should know I wouldn't touch Orange/FT with a barge pole, so do not need a low pass filter.[:)]

 

[Quillan]

Thanks for the link Pachapapa I understand now, it is a form of patch panel after all.

Araucaria - Have you got one of these box's that is shown in Pachapapa's link as it seems to me that you won't get very far without one unless you continue with the bit of chewing gum and string approach. The distribution box as far as I can see, and may be confirmed by Pachapapa, is an integral part of the system and without it you could be on a hiding to nothing. If you don't have such a box I would get your electrician to read up on the spec, print off the document given in the link and get him to sort it out.

Pachapapa - Am I right in thinking that with these news systems the ADSL filter comes with the box as does the terrestrial aerial splitter?

[AnOther]

[quote user="pachapapa"]As everyone should know I wouldn't touch Orange/FT with a barge pole, so do not need a low pass filter.[:)][/quote]Is your phone line supplied by someone other than FT then [8-)]

[pachapapa]

The DTI ends in a box called GTL which can contain everything including a LiveBox, etc.

A good site is the Aix-Marseille students information for the BAC Profs and BTS, some of it is outdated by modifications in the NF C 15-100 regs.

The three links give the Home Page, VDI and Teléphonie pages which are topical to the thread.

http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/index.htm

http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/cours/abati/domo/vdi.htm

http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/cours/abati/domo/telephonie.htm

The website is also useful for getting images to illustrate a point.

For example: http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/cours/abati/domo/images/telephonie18.gif

[IMG]http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/cours/abati/domo/images/telephonie18.gif[/IMG]

[Chancer]

The new requirement of the NF C 15-100 and of course Consuel is indeed one of these new fangled tableau de communication replete with bornes be brassage, I would prescribe a hefty drink before any of you enquire of the price of one though, the cheapest one in Rexel was €458 TTC after a 45% discount [:-))]

Still its good news for the electricians who will no doubt insist on its fitment together with the recommended four  RJ45's in the salon and two in each other room all of which charged out at list price as they get discounts of up to 80%.

I have 7 or possibly 8 of these blighters to do and have no intention of purchasing them, I will bricolage my own just as I did with my last coffret de communication in the GTL, its more complicated now but still doable with the multi RJ45 sockets available in the UK.

Regarding the filter ADSL, if you have your telephone calls as part of your ADSL package, I am with free.fr, not sure about Pachapapa, then you have no need of an ADSL filter, its only needed if you maintain an analogue line.

 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="AnOther"]

[quote user="pachapapa"]As everyone should know I wouldn't touch Orange/FT with a barge pole, so do not need a low pass filter.[:)][/quote]Is your phone line supplied by someone other than FT then [8-)]

[/quote]

Free pay Orange for the use of the "boucle local" from the DSLAM to the DTI......absolutely rock all to do with me.......only thing I done in the DTI is to take out their poxy condenser and bin it......Oh! and disconnect all the wires inside except the grey one and the white one to contacts No 1 and No3.......french telephones work POTS wise as indeed do the ADSLBoxes with RJ11 VOIP connections. SO A WIRE TO MAKE IT GO DING DING DING IS NOT NECESSARY.

[Araucaria]

I am certainly now much better informed (if none the wiser, as they say), but there are a couple of points I still don't understand.

The first is that I think one of the wiring arrangements we tried was exactly as it should be. But it didn't work. So maybe the master filter is faulty.

The second is that there's nothing very odd, or old fashioned, about the coffret, though modern norms would seem to have it filled up with RJ45 sockets which I can't quite see the use of. At least not with the set up we have.

This is what we've got:

[URL=http://s585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/?action=view&current=coffret001.jpg][IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/th_coffret001.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I've taken all the covers off so the internals are visible.

As far as I understand it (which is not very far), in the left-hand, DTI box, the FT cable arrives at the lower left corner. All the other punch-down connectors round the edge are for the separate phone connections, but they are all connected in parallel - if I've had the DTI's internals explained properly. To the left of the RJ45 socket (which is under the slide/flap marked test) there is a pull-out connector which I believe isolates all the phone lines. Does it also isolate the "test" socket, or does that one remain live?

In view of that, then the only way to continue to use the DTI box is to take from it just one pair of wires which will go to the entry block of the ADSL filter on the right. Then all the phone lines would have to come from the phone exit of the filter, and the ADSL line would come from either the modem RJ45 socket on the top right of the filter, OR from the same entry block that the wires enter the filter through. That's because, AFAIK, the ADSL line isn't actually filtered, only the phone lines. Well, we tried that and got nowhere!

At present the filter is there but it's effectively bypassed. And we've got a filter in one of the phone sockets, though it's the Heath Robinson affair I've previously described. As a result for the first time in months our FT line is working.

I suppose we could forget about the FT line and its number, and stick with the VOIP phone we have from the Livebox. But the other number is listed in the local annuaire, and when people tried to phone it, they heard the ringing tone, but we never answered it.

Does it matter which of the two wires goes into the correct part of the RJ45 sockets we have all round the house? Or can they happily be swapped around? Because I have a feeling now that our electrician doesn't really have much experience rewiring phone circuits.

[pachapapa]

[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/coffret001.jpg[/IMG]

For starters the line-out from the DTI with a pink wire and a blue wire is connected to the low frequency telephone output, it should be connected to the line input of the ADSL/POTS SPLITTER ( adsl master filter); secondly when the  filter has perfectly purpose built RJ11 sockets why does the plat of an electrician not use RJ11 female connections.

Another thing I cant see any RJ45 connection to the modem RJ45 socket on the ADSL master filter ( top right).

Anybodies guess what he has done to the RJ45 sockets scattered around your dwelling, bog standard "T" french connections would have been sufficient and the wires can be fixed with a small bleeding philips screwdriver. I am about to go back to a pop concert in the field next door and when I awake will do a car boot in Thouars; next log in sunday evening.

Good luck PPP.

[pachapapa]

Elusive your Dispositif terminaison Interieur. http://www.conectis.com/docs/Fiches_Techniques/Residentiel_(filtres_ADSL,filtres_Maitre...)/EM1_DRJ.pdf