Ofstead similar in France

[Callandclan]

Can anyone tell me if there is an offical internet site similar to Ofstead in the Uk, with reference reports on colleges.  That would give me a clear indication on the quality of the teaching.

 

Many thanks

 

[Dick Smith]

As far as I am aware there is no equivalent to Ofsted in France. This seems to be an English obsession...

[Mistral]

The whole idea would be completely against French thinking. This is the counrty of "égalité" All teachers are trained to the same levels, all are therefore equally competant  Teachers are are not recruted directly by the school but their postings are based on a points system (ancienté giving the largest amount of points) All classes should have the same mix of abilities and follow exactly the same programme, the idea of a school having a particular ethic or style is unknown.

The only things you will probably find are word of mouth comments from other parents on the school's reputation mainly based on the kind of pupil who goes there (i.e. large immigrant population). I used to work in a ZEP, which had a very bad reputation while people conveniantly forgot that we had the best brevet scores in town (against not so good 6eme evaluations)

 About 10 years ago, my academie (Aix-marseille) published a list of all the colleges  (not including marseille) in 5 catagories. The criteria for the catagories included the number of pupils with at least year's delay on arriving in 6eme, at least one foreign parent, unemployed parents and other things along the same lines.

 

[Tourangelle]

[quote]Can anyone tell me if there is an offical internet site similar to Ofstead in the Uk, with reference reports on colleges. That would give me a clear indication on the quality of the teaching. Man...[/quote]

Also, to add to what Mistral says, schools are not inspected in the same way at all here. The individual teachers are inspected at various times during their careers, and the administration of the school, the headmaster and so on, can be inspected too, but there is never one week where everything and everyone is inspected.

[Callandclan]

Dick

You may call it a British Obsession, but as I have only lived in the Uk for a total of 6yrs out of the past 15, in various countries.  It was the only example/comparison I could give. 

My reasons for asking is that we plan to move in the next six months and I'd like to know the reputations of the local collages in the area, as this will influence where we settle.

I'd love to be able to find out through word of mouth, but alas being in the middle of no where, with no neighbours makes it slightly limiting.

 

[Mistral]

What I was trying to say is that you really shouldn't rely on word of mouth. As I said, it's almost totally based on criteria such as the number of immigrants (or at least the imagined number) or whether or not it's in the town centre (good) or the outskirts (bad)

A lot of collèges have quite a high teacher turnover and it usually takes a few years to build a reputation so it's quite possible to choose a collège based on teachers (or heads- they do have a lot of influence) who haven't been there for the last 5 years. As I said my last school had a very bad reputation, the head spent years trying to prove it was wrong. After  about 10 years people finally began to realise that we weren't as bad as all that  only for the head to retire and be replaced with someone who was  completely incompetant (I have to say it) the school has gone downhill badly since but now it's still living on the old positive reputation. You can't win

Tourangelle is so right about inspections. In 13 years I have been inspected exactly twice, each time for a single hour of lesson. I know teachers who have never been inspected and others who have refused inspections for the last 10 years.

[Alcazar]

[quote]Can anyone tell me if there is an offical internet site similar to Ofstead in the Uk, with reference reports on colleges. That would give me a clear indication on the quality of the teaching. Man...[/quote]

What, and you reckon OFSTED do that? Dream on.........

Alcazar

[Dick Smith]

Professor Caroline Fitzgibbon of Durham University (a most estimable woman, a superb research statistician and a great teacher) stated in her book 'Ofsted schmofsted' that the average Ofsted report would fail as an MA dissertation on methodological grounds and the quality of statistical work, poor sampling etc. The latest style of inspection seems to compound this, despite giving less notice to schools.

[Deby]

It is almost impossible in France to fire a teacher - that would be an admission that the French system is flawed!

Teachers tend to huddle together and start witch hunts.  Unfortunately, they tend to go for the good teachers too, especially the ones that strive and have ambitions. The good ones tend to question things and that makes them an easy target.

The initial question is a good example of how the British system is so unlike the french system, so you cannot compare like for like. 

When moving to a French school, it is not just about learning another language and being taught in French.  French schooling is incredibly different to the British or another other nationality.  I cannot reiterate this point enough as I think people do not realise this when they embark on a move.  I know for sure I did not.

Deby

[Callandclan]

Professor Caroline Fitzgibbon of Durham University (a most estimable woman, a superb research statistician and a great teacher) stated in her book 'Ofsted schmofsted' that the average Ofsted report would fail as an MA dissertation on methodological grounds and the quality of statistical work, poor sampling etc. The latest style of inspection seems to compound this, despite giving less notice to schools.

What is the relevance of this to my origional question?

I thank all useful contributions to my origional request.  I guess the answer is no, there is no similar organisation.  So I shall continue on my quest and ask around.

Thanks

[Dick Smith]

The point, which Alcazar was also making, is that even were it available in France an Ofsted (note spelling) report is a pretty poor basis for judging a school, but as others have noted no such system exists in France anyway. As I said in the original (note spelling) answer to your question.

The English fixation is that everything can be measured and targets set as though improvement happens in straight lines and for the same reasons everywhere.

Sorry to have upset you in some way - do you feel that being rude to people is the best way of getting your questions answered? Or was it just that the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear?

[Tourangelle]

callandclan

perhaps your best bet is to approach the Fédérations de parent d'élèves, (the parents' associations in other words) of the schools you are considering. There are two, the PEEP and the FCPE. They are different politically, but they should beable to give you the information that you would be interested in about the school.

Debbie is right, French teachers don't get sacked - but they do get shunted into other civil service jobs if they are not up to scratch!

[Dee Sivell]

Oh Dear!

I thought the idea of these forums was to share helpful friendly advice?!

I should think Callandclan is regretting asking an innocent question!

I feel as if I have just had a lecture from the Headmaster! and that was just reading it.

Please don't forget newcomers to France do not know all these facts and seasoned ex-pats could share their knwledge in a pleasant manner. As my Mum used to say "If you can't say anything nice-----don't say anything"

[Callandclan]

Dick

A simple no would of sufficed in answer to my question. 

To all the other contributors, thank you for your time and for your input.

I do know the french education system is totaly different to that of the uk, one of the reasons why I am here.  I also made sure my son had french language lessons before we came here for a yr and continued them this yr.

Once again many thanks.  I now have all the information to proceed.

 

To Dee Sivell, I couldn't agree more!!

[Dick Smith]

Read it again - that's what I did. If posters don't like the answers they shouldn't shoot the messengers, either.

[Teamedup]

Do other countries have ofstead type reports then?

I wouldn't have asked this question on here anyway, I would have contacted the Inspection Academique and asked them.

I have a good idea as to what they would have said ofcourse, but that was what I would have done.

The FCPE is in state schools and APEL is private usually catholic schools. My experience is that the main offices know little of how good each school is.

 

[Dick Smith]

I've never seen or heard of anyone else who has a system like Ofsted.

[Tourangelle]

The FCPE and/or the PEEP have representatives in pretty much every school. If neither of them is represented (which would be really surprising), then it is clearly not the school for you as the parents are obviously not interested, but as I said it would be very very surprising. You can contact the schools INDIVIDUALLY that you are interested in to get the phone numbers of their representatives.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]Oh Dear!I thought the idea of these forums was to share helpful friendly advice?!I should think Callandclan is regretting asking an innocent question!I feel as if I have just had a lecture from the He...[/quote]

So you figured you'd add to the pleasantness, was that your reason for joining?

[Dee Sivell]

I was referring to Dick's comments, not yours.

Dee

[Clarkkent]

[quote]I was referring to Dick's comments, not yours.Dee[/quote]

Apart from its verbosity, I see nothing wrong with Dick's answer. He answers the question by including an authority for his view.

Do other countries have ofstead type reports then?

If I recall correctly, Ofsted was invented during the time of The Mad Woman from Grantham, whose government, in an attempt to mollify her devoted Daily Mail reading following decided that most of the failings in British society could be laid at the feet of teachers, and so

(a) demonised and demoralised them, and

(b) swept away the inspection system (perceived as having gone soft) and replaced it with a semi-commercialised system which had its roots in industrial quality assurance.

 

 

[Alcazar]

And as I once said to a staffroom full of primary teachers, "any small boy can tell you that just by repeatedly measuring something, that "something" does not magically get bigger, or better" Ofsted=waste of space

BTW: to the original poster: "would have" is usually preferred to "would of"

Kind regards,
Alcazar

[Viv]

I appreciate that for those involved in education, the words Ofsted and League Tables are enough to get your dander up but for many parents it is often seen as the only way in the UK, (other than by asking around) of judging the calibre of the school/ its performance or not.

The fact that the Government still seem to have faith in these systems, must only serve to "re-enforce" to parents that such information is both reliable and useful. 

[Dick Smith]

Yes it does, but the reports can be misleading in several ways.

Firstly they only set out to measure what they define as measurable; does the school have all the necessary paperwork, is it properly run (according to legal definitions), does it offer value for money (?how?), how many lessons fulfil Ofsted's criteria for good lessons (satisfactory is not good enough - what does that mean?) etc. The classroom judgements are based on a small sample of lessons - Ofsted have seen seven of my lessons in the past ten years (out of about 8,000). In some cases there have been serious statistical errors beyond the poor sampling methodology.

Secondly they only take a snapshot. A school may be on the way up or down at the time, but although the snapshot can make some sort of judgement about magnitude it can't detect (easily) direction of travel. By the time of the next inspection (after 4 years in some cases) the previous information can be thoroughly out of date. And a snapshot can be very misleading.

Thirdly they find it difficult to measure, and therefore report on, non-academic aspects of the school, how well it prepares pupils for life in general etc.

Fourthly there are lingering doubts about the quality of some Ofsted inspectors. There are many staffroom stories, but it is certainly the case that some inspectors have been censured and not re-hired as a result of complaints.

The way to judge a school is to visit it (and others) and have an informed discussion with the head (or deputy), in which you don't come across as treating her or him like the manager of a branch of Sainsbury's, which is sadly often now the case. Visit open days, make enquiries that fit your needs and the needs of your child, and then make up your mind. Many people select schools for their kids with less thought than choosing a new car, although of course others make great sacrifices to get their child into the 'right' school.

Sorry to be verbose, Clark, but some explanations require more than 5 words...

[Clarkkent]

I fear, Dick, that:

 "that the average Ofsted report would fail as an MA dissertation on methodological grounds and the quality of statistical work, poor sampling etc."

was not perceived by Callandclan as a negative statement about Ofsted. Unfortunately, your sentence contained (I think) 47 words - there are people about who cannot cope with such linguistic complexity. I thought you made your point with force, but others clearly disagree.