Pre-emigration French lessons - how useful?

[pangur]

Hi

I have a four year old who has just finished his first year of maternelle after 2 years with a French childminder.  His comprehension is excellent but he is still far from chattering away in French, unlike what some expat internautes might have you think.  His English vocab is excellent, he loves to read but getting to grips with a foreign language is hard even for 3 year olds.  Definitely get your kids exposed as much as possible.

I have been really impressed with the standard of French magazines for children which seem vastly superior to the TV tie-ins that seem to dominate the English speaking market. http://www.bayardkids.com/ have a great selection of magazines for all ages and you can also buy internet access for games and DVDs for the aural aspect.  Also, why not buy their favourite DVDs from Amazon.fr?   

[pachapapa]

I have studied languages at ordinary level, advanced level and undergraduate level. The quality of tuition is abysmal as vouched for by the number of brits speaking ANY language fluently.

Increasingly this observation can be applied also to english as well.

But if you want to waste a lot of cash for no result thats fine by me.

You and your child would be better occupied concentrating on acquiring the basics of oral fluency; the initial contact will be oral and fluency will be one whole lot more important than grammar, spelling, etc....your coloured gender prompts are amusing...reminds me of Billy Graham and bible quotes on his shaving mirror.

At the undergraduate level at the University of Wolverhampton, some years ago, much time was wasted and too little time devoted to aural and oral competency. When I suggested that the European Geography Module should be tuitionised in european languages with the singular absence of english, it was obvious that they considered me to be quite mad.

The Joint Honours course in two modern european languages lasted 4 years, an inordinate time span, in terms of developing real fluency the only part of the course which was really of any value was the third year, the Erasmus Exchange period with time spent at a foreign university.

[Kitty]

Three of my children started at different times in French schools with no prior knowledge of French.  They were all aged either 9 or 10 and, each time, they were the only British child in the school.  They are now in the middle of, or nearing the end of, their education and all say that coming to France was the best thing that happened to them.

As adults, we forget the desire of children to speak another language.  It is that desire that gets the child through the first term.

My worry for Jack about having pre-emigration lessons is that they might frighten him rather than empower him.  We all know how hard it is to learn a language in the classroom or with a tutor.  The idea of French television is a better one, as is hooking up with French children on holiday.  It is a more fun way of absorbing a language.

Just my thoughts based on my experience of integrating three of my children into French schools, who were the same age as Jack....

DD - you can email or PM me, if you wish.

[Sara]

When you come over for your summer holiday look out for ' Foire a tout' normally on a Sunday. I have picked up several Dvd's or video's for 1 or 2 Euro each, great value for money. Also look out for childrens magazines and comics. They are often as cheap as 20- 50 centimes. Wapiti is very good and a lot of fun .

[idun]

Kitty, I am glad that it went so well for your children, I really really am, but whenever I hear of anyone bringing their kids to France, it actually affects me, I get a physical feeling, a little whosh of fright/fear, inquiétude, I have no proper words for it, but it is not good

The worst thing that ever happened to mine, born in France, was staying in France from 6eme onwards. Too late now and really no one would want to be in our family situation at the moment. It could be worse, but my oh my, just half  'normal' would be a relief.

Kids like to learn another language? Ofcourse some might, but lots do not. Lots are very uneasy with 'forrin', food, language, the way people act, their gestures. Even mine, bilingual were not happy bunnies in Spain when they were young.Still as an adult the eldest moved there and is now fluent, but that was as an adult, making an adult choice for himself.

[Sara]

Too be totally honest I also have a sick feeling inside me when I think of Jacques living here. I know that where we live the 'english ' are not liked and this is why the children are unkind to him at school and even in our village. I know that they are xenophobic and racist ( probably innitiated by the adults )perhaps for your sakes it is just here in Normandie (?) Just becareful where you move to......

[Catalpa]

I'm sorry to hear you have experienced that in Normandy, Sara - although, it's a big region... about the size of Wales iirc, so it is not surprising that some places are less welcoming than others. This is perhaps particularly in poorer areas with few employment opportunities where British people are perceived to be wealthy. And, in comparison with some French families, on paper at least, we are.

I had heard that some teachers in Calvados / Manche were becoming increasingly irritated with British kids starting school with absolutely no French. Teachers felt that those with no language required a disproportionate amount of class time compared to other kids who had different but no less important needs. Which is, I suppose, another reason to ensure that kids start school with some language - it benefits the teaching staff too.

[Sprogster]

Kitty, you were lucky as I have also heard that French teachers are getting increasingly fed up with foreign children arriving at French schools with no French language ability, and the resulting disproportionate amount of time needed from the teaching staff.

[Catalpa]

Kitty did say that her child/ren were the only British children in the school/s which may have had some bearing on their easy transition. I think in areas where there is more British immigration - this part of Normandy, the Dordogne for eg - having to regularly integrate British children with language difficulties would quickly become a chore.

ETA: At least, I don't so much "think" it as repeat what an ex-teacher friend of mine told me.

[Sara]

We live 20 minutes from beautiful  Honfleur, infact this was where Jac was born. Where we live there are plenty of jobs because we are near the city Caen, Rouen and Le Havre and only 1 and half hours away from Paris.

 The teachers at Jac's school have never been a problem, quite on the contrary, they have always been full of praise for him. saying that he is always motivated  and that he is especially polite and well manered. In fact the head mistress had also said this to another lady I know about Jac . In Jac's school there is now only one other english child (school 150 children)  .  Jac is going on to CE2 despite being the youngest in his class and I know that he is doing better than most of them in the weekly school tests, so not all english kids are frustrating for the teachers. As I said before it the children who live here, they have sulky faces perhaps spoilt or ignored by their parents? Who knows, all I know is that despite everything Jacques is very happy and definately not sulky...... He is well loved and knows it.

Going back to the original post hope your son Jack does make friends with happy, kind children it not much to ask for....Having been hurt by the boys in his class he has no interest in seeing them over the summer holidays and prefers just to be with us. This is worrying for me (for not speaking french) but I would rather he was by himself than playing with them.

 

 

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Sara"]We live 20 minutes from beautiful  Honfleur...[/quote]A lovely place to be. [:)]

[quote user="Sara"]...so not all english kids are frustrating for the teachers. [/quote]Agree totally - and I didn't mean to imply that at all. It's the first few weeks / months for older children with no French that is apparently the problem.

[andyh4]

DD

 

Educationalists all seem to agree that there are 2 ways that language is learned.

You children learn it by absorption, older people learn essentially through memory and rules.

The experts disagree somewhat about when the change from the first to the second takes place andviews are from 8 to 11 years old.  Jack seems to just around about the cusp if I have understood correctly.

 

For young children the learning is much more natural and easier than for older.

 

From what you say about him being bright and recognising patterns, it might imply that his brain is already well on the way towards the adult way of learning a language.

 

From experience with friends daughters I can fully relate to this research finding.  They came out with 2 daughter 7 and 10.  The 10 year old was very clever, the 7 year old less so, but not stupid by any stretch of the imagination.  They arrived with minimal language pre-training - the tribulations of working for an international company who can send you anywhere at short notice.  The 7 year old coped much better than the older girl.  At the end everything was OK and indeed both got top marks in their CSEs on return to the UK - which they took immediately and well below the normal age.

 

So my advice would be start as soon as possible - and I agree with PPP - aural and oral is much more important than any grammer rules - although I would not discount the reading aspect.

 

[Daft Doctor]

Again thank you, all the comments are so helpful, well-meaning and appreciated.  We will give the lessons a try but will try to find some suitable simple DVDs, comics, etc which might also help. If for any reasons the lessons aren't working we can change tack. 

Sara, we are going to the Alps and know English families with young children who have settled there very well.  I was given their numbers by the local school (not sure about data Protection in France but hey ho!), and asked a set of questions of each of them (3 families in all) about life for the children and for them as adults.  All of them said the children had settled very well, had good support from the schools, had made lots of friends and had not experienced any form of bullying.  

Andyh4 what you say is fascinating and rings true.  What is difficult at any age is to try to get children to concentrate, participate and see the worth of what they are doing, but hopefully we can slowly build a bit of confidence into Jack over the next 8 months.     [:)]

[idun]

As I said, parents often don't know what is going on and too often their french isn't up to it or they don't understand the school system. So  I'm sure that these people are very nice, but I would take what they say with a pinch of salt.

It will be wonderful if they are right. And I will be glad if they are right. 

My kids have always told me far too much, both of them always did. But the ommissions that are coming out now, are heart breaking, the things that adults can tell me that a child could not, would not.

[Sprogster]

DaftDoctor, your circumstances are fairly unusual in that if I understand the situation correctly you are going to France as an early retiree, but still have a young child. That I would see as a positive in that presumably you will have the luxury of time to help and support your son with the integration process.

Come to think of it you are the only poster that comes to mind on the two French forums that I participate, that is currently moving to France with children, which says a lot about the current economic climate and a total contrast to several years ago.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Sprogster, yes you are indeed right and I too see great benefit in being able to provide maximum support for my son.  We will all be on a big learning curve, and having the time with each other and the energy that an an uncluttered life brings will be useful.  I'm lucky that my career and business choices have been good enough for us to afford to do this, and we will give it our best shot.

idun, I must tell you that in this case I am very confident that we are indeed being told the truth.  Not only have we talked to these families, but we have also spent a considerable time in their company on our trips to France.  They are down to earth types and both the adults and their boys are quite clearly very very happy with their lives in France.  I don't really want to start off a whole new debate about the rights and wrongs of moving with children, clearly (and for a whole variety of possible reasons) it works for some and not others.  I happen to think that with any luck at all it will work well for us and as a family, notwithstanding the many potential pitfalls, we are really looking forward to it.      

   

[pachapapa]

OT

Headline this evening in 20minutes.[:P]

Tennus: Gaël Monfils qualifié pour les 8es de finale du tournoi de Hambourg

[scorciatoia]

I think lessons beforehand are helpful, but, I think regular lessons once he is there will be better.  It might be hard to wrap his head around beforehand, and once you get there, it's a completely different game.  I don't know what school he'll be going to, but if you tell them that he's taking lessons regularly, I think it's a very fair exchange for them working a bit harder to help him.

My daughter had the same issue - her French was very very basic, and it was just to difficult for her to socialize and learn properly at school, we enrolled her for French lessons at Nouqa Langues for several lessons and then the year, and it was an excellent choice.  Not only did she learn in a more organized environment more adapted to her needs, but it gave her motivation to study/speak/work on her French as much as possible, a lot of confidence as well. Also, she met a number of bilingual children/other children learning languages, which has been really great.  If you are looking for lessons I would recommend the same school, here's the site if you'd like : www.nouqa.fr

I think the best approach is really a little of everything : immersion, more tailored lessons (aka not just a French class made for French students...), trying to read French books or read on his own or with you...we had my daughter do all of these things and I think that was the key.  Most importantly though, he's young and so this is his best chance to learn the language well before he is older and school is more serious.

[Hoddy]

In addition to learning in a fairly formal way you might ty French children's songs and times tables which are readily available on the internet. I've been surprised at how often the line from a song I learned in school has come to my aid.

Hoddy

[Rose]

DD - I may be joining this a bit late as I think you're

already clear on what you're doing but I just wanted to say that yes, get

lessons, get some books, watch some TV, if you're coming to France for a

holiday, buy some DVD's as they are in both French and English so you can

alternate which language you watch.

Our son was 8 when we moved and had very little French. We were also advised

that maybe it is best not to give lessons as they'll cope when they get

here.  Well he did cope and is doing brilliantly and has had felicitations

for the last two terms at school for his moyen; he's starting his second year

at college in September and we've been here 4 years.  But... I do believe

lessons would have just given him a little bit of a helping hand in the beginning.

I would also try and get your son to learn common verbs like etre and avoir...

this was the first thing our son was given learn... we printed them off and had

copies on the fridge and on doors and so on.

We also bought lots of dual language books - there are some great ones on Amazon. 

This like Hieronymus Betts and his extraordinary pets... not sure if

I've spelt it correctly!  We bought some very young books and he quickly

learned to read these and make sense of them and then we just bought what he

liked the look of... this worked very well for us and I would recommend you do

this too.

We used to talk in French at meal times... trying to find the names for

everything we could see.  We also had a game where we had to work our way

through the alphabet finding French objects for each letter.  The school gave

my son lots of sheets every few days with animals or household items or objects

that he had to learn... we also bought a photo dictionary and tried to learn 10

new words a week... or a new word a day.  All of these things are simple

but will help build vocabulary. 

Also, a very good idea if you are learning words, learn if they are le or la at

the same time!  And we always wrote down new words too to check spelling -

the french are very keen on spelling tests! 

All of this was done in an informal way and we did it as games that we

joined in with.  It was a great help to

us as well at the time.

When we left the UK, my sons teacher told us he would be fine for the first 4

months and then he would take a dive and feel a bit down for the next 4

months... then he would pick up again and really start to understand and talk

well. She said he would be understanding well after a year and be fluent after

two.  I would say this was prety much how it went.  I know lots of

people say they'll be fluent at 6 months but I think this is wrong. 

Children may well communicate and understand a great deal after 6 months but it

takes longer to really get to grips.  This timescale helped us and our son

a great deal as he did do pretty much as she said he would.  It made him

and us feel like he was ‘normal’ and doing what was expected.

We live in the Dordogne,  and we are sort of retired too.  Our son

was the only English boy in his primary school and is the only English boy in

college.  He has a perfect French accent and when he first started college

his teachers assumed he was French.   Being

English has never been an issue for us at either school.

We have had one experience of bullying.  It was not a french/english

thing, just a grumpy boy at the primary school.  My son was his target

when he was new but it was the other children who stood up for him and helped

him to find his feet... we did talk to the teacher about it but she was already

aware and they did take action and I have no complaints about how it was

handled.  The same boy is now at college with my son and whilst they're

not friends, they will chat and say hello.  Apart from that I have only

good things to say about our experiences so far.

Finally - sorry for the long post -  if your son likes sports join a

club.  We joined the local rugby club.  Sports for children is very well organised here and we have a

big choice of activities.  His team are all very close, most of them go to

the same school and live close enough for them to cycle to the village and get

together.  This helped him and us a great deal when we first arrived.  It is a great way to make friends and learn

the language.

 I hope this helps – please feel free to email if you have

any questions – and good luck with the move!

[Kitty]

[quote user="scorciatoia"] I think lessons beforehand are helpful, but, I think regular lessons once he is there will be better.  [/quote]

Seconded.

[Pads]

I think at the end of the day no matter how much french he knows it will all be down to a positive attitude , if you tell him he can do it and he see's you doing it and at no time in his hearing be negative about the people or the country. Make it all a new adventure and praise his every step forward he will get there ...

Good luck to you......

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Rose, Pads and Kitty, thank you for all that insight and mature, positive advice, it really is most valued.  I have taken it all on board and will do my best to make things the least difficult it can be for Jack.  We will all be in it together, which will be great, and as I have said before, we have eyes wide open but are very excited.  Jack's passions are skiing, climbing and tennis, all of which are brilliantly catered for where we are going.  He already knows some boys in the local ski club and he can't wait to join.  We will laugh together and if necessary cry together, but I am as sure as I can be that we will have a great life in the long run.  

[Rose]

[quote user="Kitty"][quote user="scorciatoia"] I think lessons beforehand are helpful, but, I think regular lessons once he is there will be better.  [/quote]

Seconded.

[/quote]

Thirded (if that's a word) - we had wednesday afternoon lessons for 3 years and they we're fantastic. For the first year the teacher was provided by the school and we just continued with them - they made a huge difference.

[pachapapa]

As mentioned earlier up the thread motivation is important.

I remember whilst an undergraduate at Imperial signing on as tour guide with an american company for the summer of 1968.

It was necessary to speak english,french,spanish and italian.

I lied and said at the interview that I was fluent in all four languages.

I went straight from the interview venue having got the job to Foyle's and bought Parliamo Italiano;  the three booklets and cassette tapes covering lessons 1-10,10-20 and 20-30.

Three months later on crossing the border at ventimiglia, I was fluent in Italian.[:)] 

A smart BBC course on the basics.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBC-PARLIAMO-ITALIANO-lessons-1-10-EX-/380324375552