What a Pullavah!

[Just Katie]

I have bought a british Merc which I leave on my mates drive in Tarn.  Me and hubby visit about 4 times per year.  Would it be easier to gift the car to my friend who is french resident then she can insure it with me and hubby as named drivers or insure it here in UK with my mate as a named driver.  Hope someone can help.

[Quillan]

See the other threads on UK cars in France. You can keep it on UK plates for 30 days or 3 months depending which one you choose to believe. The truth of the matter is that the car has left the UK therefore it MUST be exported and placed on French plates. If you do this then you MUST insure it in France and have a CT if required. There is no way round this, anything else is illegal although you will get away with it till you have an accident and then you will find you don't have insurance cover as you have broiken the law (hope you don't kill anyone like a child for example).

SO to answer your question, get it put on French plates and have it insured in France. It really won't matter if you insure it and have your mate on your insurance or the other way round unless you have no, no claims bonus or have been done for D&D.

[Just Katie]

Thanks Quillan,  That is what I am worried about incase my mate Twinkle injures some high earner.  if she insured it legally with French Plates would be a problem having me and my husband as non resident named drivers and if so who gives the best deals.  Hope someone can help cos I am a bit of an ostrich when it comes to all this stuff.

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]Thanks Quillan,  That is what I am worried about incase my mate Twinkle injures some high earner.  if she insured it legally with French Plates would be a problem having me and my husband as non resident named drivers and if so who gives the best deals.  Hope someone can help cos I am a bit of an ostrich when it comes to all this stuff.[/quote]

Would you mind not imagining me having accidents in your Merc please, I've had enough already in my INSURED Citroen thank you[8-|]

[Quillan]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]Thanks Quillan,  That is what I am worried about incase my mate Twinkle injures some high earner.  if she insured it legally with French Plates would be a problem having me and my husband as non resident named drivers and if so who gives the best deals.  Hope someone can help cos I am a bit of an ostrich when it comes to all this stuff.[/quote]

No problem adding people, just a photocopy of their license normally does the job. You can add people by the week the same as the UK. As to whom you get the assurance with thats up to you, you have to do the same as the rest of us , peddle round the brokers and get the best deal. Try your bank first and don't forget the way it works is quite different to the UK

[val douest]

I have read the above with interest. On my (french) policy my husband

and I are named drivers, but as far as I can see from the policy

document anyone who has had a licence for at least three years is

entitled to drive with my permission. There seems to be no requirement

to inform the insurance company first, or at least it does not

explicitly say so.

Am I missing something here? It could be a very nasty shock if I am.

[Just Katie]

Thanks Val,  The question I am asking is if it would be okay for hubby and me who are UK resident to be added as named drivers on french policy.  Are you also UK Resident?

[Deimos]

[quote user="val douest"]… but as far as I can see from the policy

document anyone who has had a licence for at least three years is

entitled to drive with my permission. There seems to be no requirement

to inform the insurance company first, or at least it does not

explicitly say so.

Am I missing something here? It could be a very nasty shock if I am.

[/quote]

I asked my insurance company (agency) about getting some visitors added to my car insurance and they said the same (about however many years and they are automatically covered). Their comment was that it is more the car that is insured rather than the specific drivers (though they do require main drivers).

Their response (via e-mail) “Car insurance with us is perhaps more simple than in the UK - it really is the car which is insured, rather than the driver, so you can take it outside France as and when you like, and any other person who has your permission and who has a current driving licence can drive it. The only proviso would be that drivers who have had a licence for less than three years would be subject to an excess if they caused an accident and/or damage to the car.”

Ian

[Just Katie]

Thats brilliant Ian,  thank you to all who replied.  xxx

[Sunday Driver]

As I understand your query, you are UK residents and wish to leave this car with a friend who is resident in France for use during your periodic visits.

According to the DVLA, you may keep the car on its UK registration (taxed and MOT'd) and use it in France, providing it does not remain in France for more than 12 months. Any longer than this, then you must permanently export it.  However, as you do not appear to have a french address, you can't register the car in France in your own name. In practice, you would have to return it to the UK to have it 's annual MOT, so technically, this could overcome the DVLA's 12 month rule.  Regarding insurance, your UK insurer is unlikely to provide permanent cover abroad, so you'd need to look at french insurance.

The simplest way is to gift the car to your friends and they could import it and register it in their name. As commented above, you can then drive on their french insurance.

[Quillan]

What Sunday Driver has said it true but this should also be put in context of UK and French law.

If you have a UK registered car which is registered to an address in the UK then it must be road legal as per UK law i.e. have a current MOT (if required), a tax disk and UK insurance. Any deviation from this (that includes the idiots who drive with a CT (French version of MOT and French insurance) is breaking UK law.

The French law, as Sunday Driver researched in another post, said that you can keep a car here for a very limited time (30 days was mentioned in one post) on UK plates and then you must have it officially exported to France. The issue I see is that who can prove what and when the car arrived in France and people seem to come up with what they consider to be very clever ways round the system but believe me they are all illegal under either UK or French law or even in some cases both.

If you can fall within UK law and have an address in the UK to which you can register the car you then have two issues, the first as has been said is that you have to take it back to the UK every year for a MOT. The second is UK insurance, most of the cheap companies will give limited useage within Europe say 30, 60 and even 90 days. They will not allow you to keep the car outside the UK for more time than this. You therefore have to go around and find an insurance company that will give you unlimited useage within Europe. They do exists but will have a higher premium than cheaper internet alternatives which do not offer this.

As said your best bet is to gift the car to another person on the understanding that you have use of it when in France. What then happens if you fall out, what happens if their car goes bang and they need yours for say work when you visit, who has your car legally? It would probably work out a lot cheaper and a lot less hassle (and less chance of falling out with your friends) if you forgot about it and just hired a car when you come over.

[Sunday Driver]

As Quillan says, its a question of law.

As UK residents with a UK registered car, you fall within UK law so the car must be UK road legal at all times.  Provided the car is taxed and MOT'd , you are merely a UK visitor using their UK registered (legal) car abroad - like any other tourist. 

As you are not resident in France, you are not subject to french law concerning the import and registration of a foreign car over here. 

Quillans last point is very valid.  If you gift the car to your friends, no will no longer have title to the vehicle.

[Quillan]

We have to get this right.

Your residency and where the car is registered and kept are two different things. Your country of residency has absolutly nothing whatsoever to do with the car. It's where the car is registered, to whom and where it phsically is that counts. Now, you will probably be thinking 'don't be stupid, if I am the registered keeper and I live in the UK then the country in which I reside and the one in which the car is registered are the same'. Well you would think correctly if pure logic and not the law was applied but sadly in law there is a difference. In law, using both French and UK law, you cannot have a car in France on UK plates, you cannot do this as the DVLC is only legally entitled to license a car in the UK, it can't grant licenses on cars perminantly in another country, not even under EU law.

Likewise if you do not have a perminant address within France you can't register a car, by perminant I mean a property that you own or rent and on which you pay bills (water, electricity, phone etc). So in this particular case and if the French authority wanted to they could be procecuted for having a UK registered car perminantly residing in France. They can't register the car themselves as they have no home here. The truth of the matter is that we see English people breaking all these laws every day of the week. These people do make me sick because they are effectivly driving with no insurance because we all know that the insurance people are the first to find a way out of paying up. The problem comes when they hit and cripple somebody for life and the insurance won't cover them or even worse kill a child then they don't look so clever. Mind you it won't happen to them will it?

So the solutions are.:

Take the car back to the UK, keep it on UK plates  and drive back and forth when you need it.

Give to your mate and let them sort out the registration etc and you drive it when in France (hope you don't fall out).

Forget the whole thing and just hire a car the four times a year you come over. This I think is better because you have not service worries. If it breaks down you get a new car, it comes with the correct insurance, you get a car less than one year old every time etc, etc. See, who's going to pay for the service on this Merc, what happens if it breaks down (the wheel falls off) when you are using it, was it your fault or theirs (you only use it 4 times a year it must be their fault)? It just gets terribly complicated.

 

[le bouffon]

You live in the UK,spend 29days in France then some days in Spain,come back to France some days later,and bare in mind that there are very very few checks when crossing between the two countries and no formalities????????????????????and UK insurance gives automatic 3rd party cover in western europe.....................Car tax is(when I was living in the UK)a civil offence.

[Russethouse]

Have you missed a word out  ? [8-)]

[Sunday Driver]

Quillan - looking at your solutions, I think we're broadly in agreement over this. Your reply is quite complex, so I'd just like to clarify, in my own mind, some of the points you're making.

I think you'll find that your country of residence does determine where the car has to be registered. If you are a UK resident, and you wish to drive your car in the UK, then you must register it in the UK.  Likewise, if you are resident in France, and you wish to drive it in France, then you must register here. Each country's legislation provides for this and sets out specific timescales for compliance - six months in the UK, one month in France.

I have to say, that if you are a UK resident and your car is registered in the UK, then I see the the country in which you reside in as being the same as the country in which your car is registered.  This is both logical and in accordance with law of the country in which you are resident, ie the UK.

If you kept a UK registered car in France for more than 12 months without permanently exporting it, then it would become an offence under UK law (eg, expired MOT and vehicle excise licence) and you would be fined under UK law.  The dilemma is that, because you are a UK resident, you do not come under french law so you cannot legalise matters by importing it into France and registering it in your name.

Your point about invalidated insurance cover is very important.

[Just Katie]

Cheers both.  I only paid £1k for it but being an old merc it will probably (hopefully) outlive the lot of us.  It has already paid for itself in the saving of car hire and the worry if damaging the hired car.  I would truly like to gift it to my friend.  In return she collects and takes me to the airport and I will use it on my visit.  This has already been suggested with the warning of consequence should we fall out.  I cant ever see this happening realistically so if anyone knows of any further consequences which could arise out of this arrangement I would be pleased if you could make me aware of them.  Thank you.

[Quillan]

OK The original poster cannot have a car here in France registered as a French car because she does not have an address to which to register. If she owned a holiday home here in France which she visited two weeks a year she can register a car here in France BUT she is not resident is she, she is resident in England. Therefore it follows in law that being a resident of a country is not a criteria for registering a car in that country.

Like wise she is resident in the UK and keeps a UK registered car in France. If the car is still here (according to our local Gendarme but then what do they know, my sarcasm is aimed at the Gendarmes and nobody else) after three months then the owners must take it back to the UK or register it in France irigardless of if they are a resident here or not. Because in this particular case she has no property here in France she can't register it so therefore it must go back.

So as you can see actual residency has nothing legally to actually do with it.

[Sunday Driver]

All this over an old cheapo Merc!

I only got involved here because I thought it was a thread about cardies........[;)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]Cheers both.  I only paid £1k for it but being an old merc it will probably (hopefully) outlive the lot of us.  It has already paid for itself in the saving of car hire and the worry if damaging the hired car.  I would truly like to gift it to my friend.  In return she collects and takes me to the airport and I will use it on my visit.  This has already been suggested with the warning of consequence should we fall out.  I cant ever see this happening realistically so if anyone knows of any further consequences which could arise out of this arrangement I would be pleased if you could make me aware of them.  Thank you.[/quote]

Golden rule, never say never.

[Sunday Driver]

Quillan

I think we could argue this point forever [:)]

For the benefit of those people who want some practical advice on how to keep themselves legal in France, can we agree on the following general definitions of residence/registration:

KKK is a UK resident who is bound by UK rules which say her UK registered car should be UK road legal, wherever its location may be at the time.

You and I are resident in France, so we're bound by french law which says we must import our vehicles into France and register them here.    

And.... your sarcasm is well directed.  Your gendarme has absolutley no idea, has he?  I wish they were all like that then we could get away with murder.....[;)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Quillan

I think we could argue this point forever [:)]

SNIP   

And.... your sarcasm is well directed.  Your gendarme has absolutley no idea, has he?  I wish they were all like that then we could get away with murder.....[;)]

[/quote]

No it's simple I am right and you are wrong, or more to the point my wife is right and you are wrong and as she is a retired silk (2001) I reckon that makes her right.

My mate towed his caravan down to Spain from Quillan. It's a UK van and his car is now on French plates. I told him it's not legal but he went anyway. He left his old UK plate on the caravan. He got stopped twice by the Gendarmes and each time he told them it was not illegal because it was an English caravan on English plates so that made the caravan legal. Both times they did not know the answer so they let him go. Somebody else when they heard this story said they had argued with the Gendarmes and called their bluff and they admitted they did not know if they had broken the law or not and if they had which one it was they broke. I would however stress that I am not as brave (or stupid, depends on your point of view) as to answer them back. I am always the one that never gets away with it.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Quillan"]....my wife is right and you are wrong and as she is a retired silk (2001) I reckon that makes her right.

[/quote]

Not if she ever worked for the CPS - bunch of amateurs, in my experience.

<victor meldrew mode off>

My wife is a retired night club bouncer and she is always right [:|]

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]Cheers both.  I only paid £1k for it but being an old merc it will probably (hopefully) outlive the lot of us.  It has already paid for itself in the saving of car hire and the worry if damaging the hired car.  I would truly like to gift it to my friend.  In return she collects and takes me to the airport and I will use it on my visit.  This has already been suggested with the warning of consequence should we fall out.  I cant ever see this happening realistically so if anyone knows of any further consequences which could arise out of this arrangement I would be pleased if you could make me aware of them.  Thank you.[/quote]

It could happen sweetie if we keep using this forum! Joke everyone!! Please do NOT be offended

[le bouffon]

The point I make is if  if you spend some time in France and some time in Spain with a uk reg`d car where do you Reg` the car???