dave21478 Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 I got a reply from the UK chap I asked a few days back. Obviously, he wants to inspect it before giving a firm quote but says to expect around £600 for the stuff listed by the french chap and £1400 for a "worst case" rebuild. (plus vat) I will be posting it tomorrow.I see a business opertunity here. Sadly, I lack the skills, knowledge, equipment or capital to start it, but there must be a decent amount of work for someone here willing to work in this line to UK prices. Even jacking UK prices by 30% would increase profits, and still undercut the locals by a significant amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 And I bet he wont be charging for the inspection and/or quote unless you decide not to go ahead, in that case I would reckon on a nominal twenty five quid.Normally I would not press someone on if, or how much, they are going to charge just to put together a price (I am sure that you are the same) but the €280 that you were reamed for has shaken me to the core.If I were to be in the same situation now (with hindsight learnt from your experienece) I would insist on a written devi for the cost of preparing the written devi!!! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 I think I could safely say that the chaps price includes a hefty "foreigner tax" supplement too, which I find to be the norm around here from most people who dont know you personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 If anyone is still interested, the pump is now in the hands of the chap in UK, who is taking his sweet effing time to have a look at it. Fed up with waiting, and having to rent another digger for a job I had promised a wee while back, which has taken a huge chunk out of my profit, I took drastic action.The yanmar unit. Bottom left you can see a red lump connected to the flywheel cover - this is the hydraulic pump. Diggers have no gearbox etc, just the pump driven directly from the engine flywheel, whic turns the hydraulic motors and pistons to make the digger move....[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/DSC00419Medium.jpg[/img]A chap I know spent quite a lot of money revising the engine in this wee nova, then rolled it into a ditch. It sat unused for a while so he gave it to me. Its the 1.5 TD engine.[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/DSC00416Medium.jpg[/img] I hoiked the front up with the tractor and got brutal with the grinder - straight through drive shafts, exhaust, wiring, mounts etc etc, and dropped the engine out the bottom....[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/DSC00418Medium.jpg[/img]I took the pump off the Yanmar to see how it connected. This crosss shaped pinion slotted into the plastic drive disc which was bolted to the flywheel (next photo)[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00440.jpg[/img][img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00438.jpg[/img]I took the corsas clutch off, and used it as a template to make an adaptor plate on heavy steel plate...[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00437.jpg[/img]The mkI version - the plastic drive plate bolted to my adaptor, wich bolted onto the clutch mounting holes.I went off this idea though, as any error in my machining would mean at best the plastic disc would wear rapidly, at worst it would shatter. I let my brain stew the problem for a while and carrie on with the engine mounts....These big rails pic up existing bolt holes on the engine block, and will have lugs welded on to bolt to e diggers existing rubber mounts on its chassis rails...[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00443.jpg[/img][img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00444.jpg[/img]and the other side...[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00445.jpg[/img]I then started on the mkII pump coupling. I took the cros shaped pinion off the pump and made this to go in its place....[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00457.jpg[/img]I then drilled 3 mountg holes in my flywheel adaptor plate to mount this rotoflex coupling....[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00456.jpg[/img]Then I needed to make a mounting for the pump. Its bloody heavy and originally bolted to the Yanmar flywheel cover. I salvaged some hefty steel channel and reinforced it like so...[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00454.jpg[/img][img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00455.jpg[/img]This will be bolted rather than welded, to allow for fine adjustment of the pump position to get it dead centre.Today, I got the engine in, mounted, plumbed in andwired up. It starts and runs well. Tomorrow will be spent on the nippy wee details - the throttle cable needs custom fittngs made, I need to mount electrc rad fans to replace the yanmars mechanically driven one, then i can fit the pump and refill the system. I need to pick up a few thgs in town too, so hopefully it should be back in ation by mid week.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tivoli Blue Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 You Know what's going to happen now?When you get the pump back and fitted. that yanmar engine will start straight away.[:-))]Some good scrap heap engineering there.Read the whole post and found it very interesting. Please let us know the outcome of the pump and engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Very very impressed. What is the max torque a Rotaflex will take ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Three or four times the max torque of the engine driving it once it has gone through the vehicles differential so no problem there.I have used them as propshaft couplings on bike engined cars and the RPM seems to be no problem.Nice idea and realisation Dave, I hope that you dont have to many teething problems, at the very least you have got away from the clutches (pun unintended) of Yanmar.If you were in New Zealand what you have done would not even raise a comment, in the UK whilst most of the new generation would not have a clue how to demerdé themselves unless they could do it with a keyboard or games console an engine transplant would not be alien to them, indeed they could probably talk a good job but not actually do one including all the ancillary problems that have to be overcome.But in France [:-))] do your neighbours look at you as if you are from a different planet?BTW I hope that the Yanmar engine ran in the conventional direction (clockwise viewed at the crankshaft pulley), not all do [6]I remember when I was young being asked to look at an HA Viva that would not start unless it was towed or bumped (cars were light enough to do it alone then) the problem had been apparent since the first garage changed the starter motor to resolve a starting problem and it had been in and out of several others since. It took me less than a second to see that it was cranking vigorously but backwards trying to find out why was a bit harder, it turned out that the starter motor whilst interchangeable like (then) all Lucas inertia starters was made for the Triumph 1300 fwd which had the engine reversed and a different cam to make the engine run backwards. Apparently the first working prototype had 4 reverse gears and one forward! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 I have no idea what torque its rated for, but as said, they are regularly used as prop and driveshaft coupling, so I forsee no problems there. When driving a car in anger, the transmission parts are subjected to fairly sudden shock loads as you change gears, but driving a digger is nothing like that. The engine runs constantly at 3 - 4k rpm (thats a guess, it has no rev counter, but its about 3/4 throttle for most work), and the pump spins away driven directly by the engine. Its output pressure runs through the hydraulic system, which is basicaly a large assembly of valves, which divert the fluid to whichever piston or drive motor needs it. Granted, scooping a heavy load will put more strain on the pump, but nothing like the shock loadings on a propshaft when accelerating a car through the gears. There are a series of relief valves that will open in the event of forcing too hard against something that will release pressure and stop the arm rather than overload the pump/engine.Anyway, its all in and running pretty well. The engine starts straight away and gives plenty of power to run the digger in heavy use. However, there is an imbalance somewhere in my coupling system, which manifests itself as quite a harsh vibration at certain RPM`s. Working outside of these ranges, everything is fine, but I assume some kind of resonance is damping out the vibrations, and I have doubts about the long-term lifespan of the rotoflex and the diggers rubber engine mounts.Im currently using it for a local job and its performing fine for now though. The diesel specialist in UK has got back to me. Full refurb of the pump would have cost around £1500 or so (compared to the €3k it would have cost here!) but he found the same unit, which is seemingly one of the rarer ones Yanmar made, in a digger breakers yard. It was fire damaged and the casing was melted, but he salvaged the innards, which were still in good condition, and made up one good pump from the two. Back together and tested, he says it is almost as good as new, and a massive improvement over the old one, giving almost 4 times higher flow rates at cranking speed, which would have been the starting problems. Total cost inc vat and return shipping is under £800. It should arrive within the week.I will then be presented with a dilemma. Do i take out the opel unit and refit the yanmar engine, or do I leave it as is, and refine the coupling? I have an idea for an improvement, which I should have thought about earlier, but will require some work on a lathe to fab a few bits that I cant make myself. I like the opel engine, it runs well, is quiet and powerfull, but unless I can get it balanced right, its not going to last. If the vibration doesnt kill the rotoflex or the engine mounts, it will kill the crank oil seals and possibly the main bearings. The opel engine alone isnt worth a huge amount financially - but the yanmar unit could probably be sold on for quite a hefty sum, especially now it has a refurbed pump and injectors. However, having a non-standard engine in the digger probably reduces its resale value.[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Try your mark one set up if only for a few minutes.looking at the mark two set up there are more things to be misaligned or eccentric than the first, granted the coupling will absorb these but it is operating over a wide RPM range and sounds like it is going resonant at the natural frequency of the rubber.NVH is a very tricky subject but I reckon that you may have been closer than you think with the first set up, the Yanmar coupling looks like it is designed to accept some misalignment whereas the rotoflex has to deflect to do so, it is the reversals of this that are giving the resonance.Another thing to try is to slacken off the pump mounting bolts progressively whilst running the engine at the critical RPM it may settle into its own natural position and you can shim up any gaps.The other suggestion is to increase the rotational mass around the flywheel/coupling or add a secondary harmonic damper like a lot of modern crankshaft pulleys, they have an outer co-axial mass rubber bonded to the inner pulley.Good luck.P.S. Are you using proper fitted bolts through the coupling? Using the closest metric equivalent (I am assuming that it is a Lotus/Hillman Pimp coupling) or even the correct size UNF setscrews would cause the problem even on a driveshaft, at 3 to 4 times the RPM that the coupling usually does things woud soon start to unravel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Like pretty much everything else I do at the moment, thisproject turned to sh1t and all went wrong. I carried on with refinements untill it ran well, but one day it worked fine for 20minutes then developed a very nasty vibration in the mountings througha good portion of the engines rev range. I assume an imbalance ormisalignment somewhere. Although useable, and making good power, it wasjust too frightening to drive for a prolonged period, it felt likely toall fly apart at any second. A couple of days fettling and adjustingfailed to make an improvements, and after I did a couple of jobs withthe digger, I just didnt have the confidence in it not to failspectacularly.Its parked at the back of the farm yard with the engine out again, and has been like that for well over a month now.I have got the yanmar pump back from the UK but I just havent got round to putting the old engine back in. I'm havingother issues at the moment in my life, and enthiusiasm for any projects at allhas crashed and burned. As things stand, this whole digger episodelooks to have been a spectacular waste of time and money and ifI can get it flogged as spares/scrap then I will probably do that justto be rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 You have a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Ditto - if you get this far down the track you had my admiration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Don't beat yourself up Dave! You have done bloody well and should be rightly proud. There are always problems with engine swaps even when the engines are meant to be the same, it's only at five to midnight on a frezing Sunday evening you discover the spigot bearing on the crank doesn't fit [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 You haven't lost til you give it away or scrap it, If you either fix the balance or swap the engine back with the recon pump so that you have a good working digger then its just a few quid more, but an asset nonetheless. To give up is the only time you yield a loss. If it's fixed then you can put your usage over the next few jobs down to the diference. If truly stuck get someone else to have a look, you may find it's less of a problem. Nil desperandum! [8-|] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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