Registering a car without a Carte Grise - How Do I?

[tasng4]

I have imported a few cars intp France, both modern and historic, so I know how to do it if it's straight forward.  Last year I bought a 1972 Morris 1100 MK3 which had been in an underground garage for 35 years.  I bought it knowing there wasn't a CG but I'd been informed it was relatively easy to get one for a "vehicule du collection" so I wasn't worried.

Yesterday I went to my sous-prefecatire and was told that I couldn't get one as it was the last registered owner's responsibility to replace it.  The last registration number wasn't on the database so can't be traced and the chap I bought it from bought it without a CG but he bought it for spares.

I have the following documentation:

- receipt from the seller

- F.F.V.E. certificate

- all the proof of residence stuff

I do not have a "declaration de cession de vehicule" but I'm in the process of getting one.

I wonder if it would be easier to export to the U.K. (on paper only) and then re-import it to France.

Any suggestions?

[dave21478]

You are in the process of getting a declaration de cession?

I doubt it. This needs to be filled out by the person named on the carte gris.

Your problem is that the paper chain of ownership is broken.

If the last named owner is person A, the guy who bought it for parts is B and you are C, the paper trail needs to be complete.

A fills out a CdC selling it to B; B registers it and when he sells it fills out a CdC selling it to C.

Your problem is you dont know who A is, and even if you did, A is likely to have filled out a CdC selling it to B.

If you turn up at the prefecture with a CdC from B selling it to C (you) they will check their records and see that this doesnt match the last details known for the car ie A sold to B.

I cant tell you about the ffve side of it as I have never done that way but their website says their service can be used in the case of lost carte gris. I would be looking into that in more detail if I were you.

[dave21478]

Also, there could be any number of unregistered owners between person A and B - you have no way of knowing that. The last legit CdC filled out by A might have been to sell it to someone else entirely.

[tasng4]

You're right about the CdC, I'm just trying to get one from the guy I bought it from in the hope it will help.  In your example person A is probably dead!

Re: the F.F.V.E. route - That's what I thought I was doing.  I sent them all the details from the seller, the BMIHT certificate and they sent an attestation to enable me to get a carte grise collection.  I will persue some more.

I was hoping some one on here would be able to say "you need form 'X'".

Oh well early days yet.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[AnOther]

You cannot export it to UK 'on paper', to UK register it you will have to physically transport it there and go through the whole procedure and in any case if you're not UK resident with a bona fide UK address DVLA will register it to you anyway.

Far easier I'd say to try and find a V5 from a scrapped car, it's probably what I would do.

[tasng4]

I haven;t seriously looked at what's involved with a U.K. import but I have my parents address to which I'd hope to register it.  I had wondered about buying a scrap car and 'ringing' it.

I have a few French friends who have managed to import various 'dodgy' cars so I remain hopeful.

[Chancer]

Was having this discussion yesterday with a knowledgable but fallible French friend, we were discussing an English guy who conveniently lost the V5 identity of his vehicle because in the specific circumstances it was easier to start with an alleged never registered unknown barn find that overcome the paper chase, he confirmed what I thought in that the FFVE was originally set up to enable old never registered vehicles that finally surfaced to be legally used on the road, I talked about perhaps going that route (losing the identity) on my own vehicle as it is an 1987 vehicle and I have all the factory and build reciepts to prove it but was first registered (by me) in the late 90's which would cause a problem with the FFVE.

 

He said to me that it can still be done, is often done but they will only do that for French manufactured vehicles, whilst he implicitly believes it I have my doubts and he is a bit of a "bloke said" type, an "on m'a dit" !!!!!

[tasng4]

Thanks to everyone who responded, I'm going to write to the F.F.V.E. and ask them what I must do.  I thought I'd followed the  guide lines but if Chancer's friend is correct I ought to be able to get it done.  The car is a U.K. built export model Morris 1100 so, maybe, there's a chance.

[dave21478]

It will absolutely be possible, but you will need to find the right combination of hoops to jump through.

Unfortunately its a typical case where two people working at the same job will give you two wildly varying answers to your question and of course neither of them could possibly be wrong.

[AnOther]

I'd heard that the process was principally for French cars to preserve the heritage but having in my travels encountered a wide range of non foreign vehicles which theoretically at least you would have thought were absolute no-no's clearly if you know where to go and who's ear to bend lots of things can become possible.

A friend of mine got a Jago Jeep registered for instance and somebody else I know managed to register a Nissan Figaro (Jap import), neither were quick or easy though.

[Chancer]

Absolutely ANO, that is my take on it as well.

 

As much as my friend is atypical and tries to work around things if he is told no then he  accepts it without question, he has had the same fight as I did with ERDF to realise his own colonne collectif but just accepted their refusal (and lies) he says I only managed because I was a foreigner which is not really true, I won because I was persistant and challenged, maybe you have to be a foreigner or not Français à souche to do that.

[nomoss]

Looking at bits and pieces of information online, I think the main requrement is to satisfactorily prove ownership of the car, maybe even including declarations from, or before a Notaire, which some have had to get in the case of inheriting a car without a CG.

It is possible that vehicle registration records are discarded after a certain period, or lost, but the fact that your car's details are not on the database could suggest it was scrapped and then (illegally) sold, but since you say there is no record, this should not pose a problem.

EDIT: After getting a Certificat de Cession from the person who sold it to you, it would be a good start to get the details of whoever sold it to him, and approach them or their relatives to provide proof of their ownership.

[AnOther]

This sort of situation typifies for me all that is rotten and dysfunctional in the EU as a whole and in France in particularly.

Despite the various directives and any noble objectives they may be designed to achieve or facilitate when they get down to the pettifogging officials administering them at the coal face there seems to be precious little sense of cooperation or a striving to find ways to say 'yes' and far more effort put into being obstructive and saying 'no'.

[tasng4]

I wrote to the F.F.V.E. and received a reply alomost immidiately.

"Bonjour,

Je vous remets en pièce jointe un document que vous pourrez présenter en préfecture pour obtenir votre carte grise.
S'ils refusent, je vous invite à changer de préfecture comme vous en avez le droit.
Cordialement,
Secrétariat FFVE"
This indicateles to me that this is something they come across often as they have a prepared response.  Basically they attached a PDF of a document listing all the rules & regulations which apply to these cases.
I particularly like the 2nd sentence.
If anyone wants a copy of this please PM me with your email address and I will send a copy.

[nomoss]

I was thinking about why a vehicle's registration details would not be available, but realised that under the previous system, which ended in 2009, once a Prefecture was advised of a sale outside their Department, its registration number would become invalid, and would probably be removed from the records, possibly after some delay.