Teaching - PGCE -> CAPES equivalent?

[Crevette]

My partner works in a French state school and is really badly paiddespite working 4 years in a UK state school and 1 year in an International School.

The reason for this is because the PGCE teaching qualification she has (from the UK) is not recognised at all in France.

This is despite the CAPES teaching qualificaion being recognised as equivalent to the PGCE in the UK...

Anyway, I read on the Times Educational Suppliment Forum recently that there may be a silver lining ;

"Well, actually by European law the different countries of the EU "have" to recognise your teaching qualification obtained in one of the countries of the Union. You don't have to wait until 2005 as this is law now, I have a CAP (Spanish Teaching qualification and the British Government gave me QTS in just a week). What you have to do is find out which government department deals with that in each country and submit to them your application. In Spain for instance is "Ministerio de Educacion y Cultura".
Good luck. "

But I have really no idea ;
i) Where to find details of this European Law.
ii) Where to find the government department which deals with it.

 

Has anyone here had any luck in getting a PGCE recognised?

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

Regards,

-Rob-

[Teamedup]

A grade career spans many many years in France and pay for those starting out in the system the pay is poor. Is this the reason your other half's wages are so poor, because they are for everyone? It is another factor to take into account.

My husband will retire before he has reached maximum salary for his grade as the anciennete creeps along so slowly where he works.

[Tourangelle]

I have a French friend who has the PGCE like your partner and worked in the UK for 3 years.  She came back to France last year and really went into whether the PGCE was worth anything and found that it wasn't.  However, she did the CAPES last year and got it and has now found that she can move up the pay scale because her years in England are recognised.  I also know a Belgian guy who has the Belgian equivalent of the agrégation, in science.  On being made redundant recently he also sought to work in the French public sector and was also told it was a no go.  I do think it is all very depressing for people who are experienced teachers and want to come to France to be told that they have to start again.  I can't personally see though that the French will ever accept the PGCE as an equivalent to the CAPES because it goes against the whole philosophy of competitive exams that they love so much!

French teachers' wages are only poor compared to England I think and also people that are in the system have job security for life, and if that isn't a perk....

Jane

[Crevette]

Hi jane,

Thanks for the help (It's good to know that if you have the CAPES at least then the years teaching in the UK are recognised).

However, I just found an account of someone in pretty much the same situation who had recognision due to a European Law

http://www.nef-web.org/pdf/FreeMove.pdf
(page 8)

Background:
A British history teacher found a post in the European Section of a Lycée in France. His job was
to teach 15-18 year old students history in English, which was exactly the same job he had in
England. However, the French authorities would not recognise his diplomas as an equivalent to
their “CAPES” exam and the result was that his status was that of a supply teacher. In effect, his
diplomas and experience were not taken into account for salary purposes. And despite having
made numerous appeals to the French Ministry of Education, the British teacher had been unable
to make any progress.

Legal Framework:
Under the EU policy of non-discrimination for migrant workers, the effect of non-recognition of this
worker's educational certificate and past work experience was indirectly discriminatory. Indirect
and unjustified discrimination based on nationality is forbidden by Article 12 of the Treaty. In
effect, the French Ministry's refusal to recognize this teacher's qualifications and experience
inhibits freedom of movement in the EU because it economically discourages the flow of labour.

Recourse:
The Solidarity Fund addressed this problem by citing relevant case law in the area, wrote a letter
to the French Ministry of Education, and contacted the French Trade Union of Teachers.
As a result of our appeal to the Education Ministry, the British teacher obtained new status.

http://www.nef-web.org/index.htm

I will be contacting them to see if they can help.

Regards,

-Rob-

[Mistral]

As Jane said, the main problem is the fact that the French system has trouble letting go of competetive exams. The CAPES/agrég aren"t really teaching qualifications, they are competetive civil service exams. Once you've passed one of them, you are a civil servant and your pay is then calculated on a civil servant rate.

I was a M.A. (the old name for contactuel or vactaire) before taking the CAPES and when I went from being non-titulaire to being titulaire, the wage increase was nice, but not enormous, not mush more than going up an echelon.

 

 

[Tourangelle]

Rob,

I would be interested to know what you find out.  What I do wonder about your example though, is, it seems be the case that a person would have the right to get the same pay, but this would not necessarily help in for long term employment.  As I understand it at the moment it is impossible to get a CDI in l'éduction nationale, and therefore although there could be equivalent treatment in terms of pay, it doesn't seem to offer a precedent as to long term employment?  Also it would not mean that the person had the CAPES as such, just the equivalent, so presumably no possibility of moving within the system?

Jane

[Cjb]

Despite EU regulations, a PGCE carries no weight in France. I tried to teach English in the french system and was told that without a CAPES I wouldn't be able to obtain a CDI. I have heard talk of things changing in the near future, but then again, change in France is not a particularly speedy process.

I was discussing this with a french guy last night, who assured me that the CAPES was a great idea and that English teachers should have to requalify to ensure that they understand the english language as well as their french counterparts!! Maybe this has something to do with why there are french children being encouraged to read classic texts in english whilst at the same time they can't manage basic conversation skills!!

[Crevette]

My partner now tells me that it is not the "CAPES" she want's to have but the "CAFEP" (which is an equivalent to the CAPES but for private schools - the big advantage being that you can actually decide where you want to teach!).

For her, the most important thing at the moment is to be on a pay which is more in line with her colleagues, and to also be offered a CDI (she is on "suppy") .

She is studying to get this at the moment but would really prefer not to! She has to read and write essays (translation from English to French) on ;

Confessions of an English Opium-Eater

King Richard II de William Shakespeare

The Complete Stories de Flannery O'Connor

If she manages to pass then "obviously" she will be well prepared for a life of teaching!

-Rob-

[Teamedup]

As I said, how can she be paid in line with her colleagues? The way salaries are allocated in France means that she could literally be on practically half of what a fellow teacher would be on fin de carriere. Both on the same grade, both doing the same job.

The annciente thing was brought in in 1948 and applies to much of the french work force.

 

http://www.lemoneymag.fr/Kalideo/Site/Application/Fiche_Pratique/s_FichePratique/0,1729,3-4525-0-4657-4665-4663-FIC,00.html

 

This shows vaguely how it works and it really does mean a carriere rather than min/max salary that one gets over probably around 7 years of so in the UK. It has nothing to do with grades either.

[Crevette]

Hi Teamedup,

She is currently earning less than "debut de carrier" on the site shown. She must be earning a lot less than colleagues doing the same, with equal teaching experience.

This is despite ;

i) 3 years experience UK state School

ii) 1 years experience international School

iii) 1 years experience teaching at French school (part public part private)

Regards,

-Rob-

[Cjb]

It all comes down to years of experience, as opposed to the quality of teaching. There seems to be a lack of incentive for those that are new to the job. The only incentive being to remain in the job and collect a salary increase regardless of performance!!

 In the UK there's been a big push to recruit and retain new teachers and also to keep good teachers within the classroom, rather than them seeking headships etc..... . Oh well, it's not the UK, and I may as well accept that, but that doesn't mean to say that I hold such a system in particularly high esteem. Don't try applying logic to the situation you'll only end up becoming even more frustrated!!

[Teamedup]

I'm not even sure that these years of experience would even count towards her salary even if she got taken on. Some years ago a friend didn't, she was treat as starting her career with the education nationale in spite of teaching in the UK for several years..... she would be about 30 at the time. Things may have changed since.

Yes cjb, there is no logic, apparently it wouldn't be fair if those who were good teachers got extra. So those increments will just keep a coming as long as the teacher turns up and stands and gives their lessons when they should, quality has nothing to do with it.

[Mistral]

I agree with cjb that experience (or at least length of time as a teacher) counts for more than quality of teaching. Teachers (in the state system) start at echelon 1 and go up to echelon 11. They move up at a set rate (gaps between the echelons vary from 3 months between ech 1 and ech 2 and 4 years -I think- between ech 10 and ech 11)

That's moving up at "ancienté". If a teacher has a good inspection, they might be graded enough to move up at "choix" or even "grand choix" This can mean changing echelons between 6 months and 2 years early. Inspections usually come about once every 5/7 years and are based on one hour's teaching and an interview.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]My partner now tells me that it is not the "CAPES" she want's to have but the "CAFEP" (which is an equivalent to the CAPES but for private schools - the big advantage being that you can actually decid...[/quote]

you can decide where you want to teach but only within a given academie.  So you are kind of stuck then if you want to go elsewhere in France...