Buying & running a bar...

[Fritz]

A subject that's probably been done to death, so apologies for re-iterating the obvious.

Anyway, the plan is to buy an established bar with or without 'petite restauration', probably on the Aquitaine coast somewhere. I guess it would be sort of seasonal but it would be nice to keep it open during the winter (should there be any locals left). Does anyone have any experience of doing similar? If so I'd appreciate, very much, some advice - as follows perhaps: 

1) Naturally one would not buy a bar unless a Class IV was part of the deal, but if the bar already has a PMU does one have to keep it going?

2) How are your suppliers? Is it customary for them to pay for the pumps, barrels, kit etc and then expect a total commitment to purchase €x per month?

3) Staff. I've heard it's too expensive to hire locals. You either do it yourself, with friends, family or get in a bi-lingual experienced Dubliner barperson with accommodation and bonus payments. Good or bad idea?

4) One would expect the usual plethora of forms, permissions, etc and to trade properly fulfilling tax, customs obligations etc, but are there any other unsuspecting bureaucratic hurdles that might crop up?

5) One would never, ever, attempt to transmute a French bar into the typical 'Irish' pub, run by English chancers which seem to be everywhere, but, it would be nice to import some English bitter from time to time. Anybody done this before?

Thanks for listening (reading).

[Ormx]

Very disrespectful to the Irish. I certainly wouldn't work for you.

[Fritz]

[quote]Very disrespectful to the Irish. I certainly wouldn't work for you.[/quote]

Er, why?

Irish was in inverted commas, hence not regular Irish, if you see what I mean. In other words, not a slur against genuine Irish pubs.

[Ormx]

Sorry if I overreacted but it sounds like you're trying to change a French bar into something which sells English beer and employs a Dubliner (sounds like a kinda "Irish" pub to me, otherwise why "Dubliner") but the fact that you'd look for a bilingual and experienced barperson from Dublin and then pay them less than you'd pay a local, just sounds like exploitation.

[Fritz]

[quote]Sorry if I overreacted but it sounds like you're trying to change a French bar into something which sells English beer and employs a Dubliner (sounds like a kinda "Irish" pub to me, otherwise why "Dub...[/quote]

Er, no. My words were 'it would be nice to import some English bitter from time to time' rather than do a French Weatherspoons.

The rationale for employing (or not, as the case may be) a Dubliner, is the fact that in my experience they're excellent at running/managing bars/pubs. That doesn't mean the pub must therefore be an Irish one.

Exploitation is an emotive word. In my humble opinion it's a free world and a free market and people have a choice or where or where not to work. In reality it may more appealing for a Dubliner to work in France at less than normal wages but get more by way of performance bonuses.

All I was doing was asking for advice, not looking for an argument.

[Barbel Bob]

I take it there were never any answers to the original questions?

Shame as I am very interested to know the answers to those type of questions. However, I understand the responses, but there were other pertinent questions the the original query.

Plus, another question would be, do the brewery's like to own the pub and what beer it sells, just like in the UK?

Are the opening hours the same as the UK, 24 hours? 11:00 - 23:00?

Any help would be very much appreciated.

[suzi05]

Hi Fritz

Sorry I don't know the answers to your questions, but if you do find out the answers (perhaps some "research" over a few beers is needed!) and open a bar serving British Beer - "Irish", Irish or otherwise -  Please do it within staggering distance of our house!! Mmmm nice warmish flattish pint of Mild'd go down well!

Good luck

Suzi

www.patiras.com/trinite.htm

[TheVicar]

We too had considered buying a pub. What we do know so far is that:-

Some bars do have contracts with breweries. Our own local recently tied

themselves to the Fischer brewery, and in return have so far received a

new coffee machine, electric canopy, terrace and tables/chairs and name

banner. On the other hand you can simply buy your booze at the cash and

carry stores. If you are buying a bar ask if they already have a

contract with a brewery.

Not sure what time a regular bar can open in the morning, may be as

early as 6.30, but I understand normal closing times to be no later

than midnight during the week and 2.00am Friday/Saturday nights, 8.00

pm Sundays. As you probably know, most bars in smaller towns shut

around 8.00pm. You would have a free choice on your own hours within

the law, and would largely depend on where it is. In a tourist town it

would probably be wise to stay open later, whereas in a small community

it would probably be wiser to open early for the coffee drinkers.

As for equipment, as long as you're buying an existing bar it's likely

to be left there. Just make sure you get an inventory of what is

included in the price.

English beer? Probably not worth the hassle. The French are unlikely to

touch it, and unless you acquire a regular flow of English clients

it'll probably die a death. The pumps are harder to clean than with

lager, and you may also run the risk of alienating the French regulars

if they feel you're trying to turn it into an English pub.

We've still got an eye open after we were beaten to it on the bar we liked. Let us know how you progress.

[jc]

Our local one usually closes about 10.30pm but will stay open as long as there are customers.

[tebee]

Well this is a subject I now know a lot more about than this time last

year, we leased a bar/restaurant, I had no experience in this field,

but I had a partner who did. Unfortunately major structural problems in

the building have now forced us to close, but we are actively  looking

for a  new one , probably to purchase this time. I'll try  and gather

my thoughts together and post a bit over the next days on what I know.

Firstly it's not easy money , Like any business over here it's a lot of

hard work, red tape and paper work . I think I saw somewhere that

10,000 bars a year are closing down in France, now quite a lot of these

may be  "in someone's front room  in the middle of nowhere serving 3

houses " type run by one old lady  but you also see a lot of empty bars

in large towns and small villages.

Secondly , If you want a good location, you will pay a heavy premium

for the business. It's usual, if you buy a bar that is running or at

least has been open in the last couple of years, to pay one sum for the

fonds ie. the business and another for the murs , litraly the walls or

the physical building .  It seems  quite common practice to charge a

high sum for the fonds  and a low one for the murs to avoid notare's

fees but this can leave you open to a large capital gains bill if you

sell the just building later. However, there are many bars available 

in small villages and the like for just the value of the property, but

often the reason for that is they have very little trade and very

little chance getting significantly more trade!

If you want to find the hours you are allowed to be open , every bar is supposed

to display a legal notice giving details of the licensing laws - this 

give details  of the hours , mine's packed away but from memory it's

until 1 am with a ordinary bar except on certain special occasions, so

just pop down to your local bar if you need to check - that's a good

excuse!

[TheVicar]

There's one thing about running a bar I have not yet established (probably several really!), perhaps Tebee can help with this one. Does a bar owner need to go on any courses, such as for running a bar / hygiene,etc,? And are these qualifications the same for a bar owner / leaseholder / employee?

[daisymay]

Location will make all the diffence. In country areas and villages the bars open early and shut early (around 9) Having known 4 couples who ran bars with some food I can tell you that employing people is very expensive due to the social costs and unless you get the trade can make the idea impractical. Regarding Irish bars there are two in Brive , about two properties apart. One is affiliated to Guiness and the other to Beamish. They are both run by French people, open until 2am and do a good trade - mainly younger French people. Older French do not seem to frequent bars - did the "cafe society" ever exist. The part of the country also seems to make a difference. Another bar owning aquaintence who was from Arras said that the French in the north west like to go out in the evenings and so do those nearer the Med. He was in Verteuil in Charente and actively encouraged  "les rostbifs" as that was the way to get trade. Our observations are over 5 years and sad to say none of these 5 couples is still running a bar. Make of it what you will.

[Bones]

My other half recently started co-running a small village bar (and shop and restaurant).

It's a pain in the backside and doesn't really pay.

The French around here are willing to try new beers and although it's impossible to get guinness on tap (due to the size of the bar etc) they do sell a widget type guiness thing that comes out of cans and is somehow electrocuted -- i don't really know!

You can hire staff, maybe on a rolling part time contract and see how it goes from there.

There's always one idiot around to ruin the atmosphere - I nearly ripped the head off one the other week and he still tries to come back.

Not adviseable. But then again, maybe it is for you.

As far as suppliers go, I think you can pick and choose, not heard any problems on that front.

Good luck!

[P]

English beer in a foreign pub - no go?

I was in Philadelphia a few years ago and went with a US friend to a bar to watch the band in which her daughters play. This was not in a touristy area. Imagine my surprise that they had Youngs on draught.

Comments that I have received in various parts of the US is 'oh you like warm beer' with an incredulous note to their voice.

Well, in the case of Philadelphia it is obvious that some 'foreigners' do like English beer.

On another occassion, chatting to a stewardess on a Japan Airlines flight from Tokyo to London, who kept bringing me different Japanese beers to try, asked how long her stop over was in London. 'Two days' was her reply, 'time to drink some dark beer'.

Paul

[Barbel Bob]

saw a bar in a small village (350 - 400 people) that was crying out for me to buy it, but that type of bar would be too quiet and would not make enough to pay the bills. I have no dout the the workmans lunches would hjave been a good earner as there was a local factory down the road. However, I think it would have been a full time job to cover the costs of runnig the place only. I need something that will keep busy(ish) so a small village is now out of the running.

It is good to go and see the different types of bars. Another one I went to see looked a very good prospect, apart from the amount of work/money that would be required to bring it up to scratch. The scale of the project was quite large, however, it is still an option at the moment as it certainly looked like it would be a busy little place.

[Bones]

Forgot to add (on a more positive note!).

If you have other villages in close proximity and there are no events other than the annual fete's etc - you could clear up.

All you need to do is contact as many local musical acts as possible, get some small posters done and voila: young folk will come out of the woodwork.

You needn't spend a fortune, but even if you do hire a small band and only break even at least you're getting the chance to welcome people in and show them how convivial the atmosphere can be chez vous.