EState Agents

[herbi]

We have some concerns regarding an estate agent (English based in France) who has a property that we would like to buy.  We have had a couple of negative comments from English owners of gites we have stayed in whilst on one of our many visits who were passing on comments from their French friends.  There is no Siret Number on the business card, & we have heard that in the area we want to move to they are really cracking down on anyone working unregistered & that those employing unregistered workers can be in trouble too.  Can anyone offer any advice on whether we would be liable for anything if he isn't registered &/or should we check this before going ahead & how?

Many thanks for any help!

Herbi

[Matthew]

Hello,

First of all, the siret number doesn't have to be on the business card. It doesn't mean he hasn't got one.

If you are not sure about him, sign the compromis at the notaire's office, then you won't have any problems. Be sure you checked everything in the house if he is a bad advisor.

as long as the buying papers are signed in the notaire's office, you've got nothing to worry about.

If he is unregistered and/or has unregistered employees, this has nothing to do with you ; his problem.

The only thing you have to worry about is : is he doing the job he's payed for good enough. If so, no problem for you !

Good luck, let us know how it turns out...

Matthew. 

[Will]

I would advise you to go by your own observations rather than rumours spread by others. I know for a fact that it is common for estate agents in France (particularly French-owned ones) to tell all sorts of lies about other agencies (mostly the non-French staffed ones), and given the general love of spreading muck and conspiracy theories it is easy for these lies to become common knowledge.

It's not quite correct to say that using an unregistered agent is not your problem - it is in fact illegal to use an unregistered business, and although under those circumstances you would be unlikely to be prosecuted, you would have no comeback if things go wrong. It's also unwise to put your trust in a notaire, not all of these are whiter than white and some are known to turn a blind eye to dodgy agencies who put work their way (it's always the agent who gets penalised, not the notaires he is in league with).

If you have concerns, then just ask the agent for his SIRET number and ask to see his carte professionelle. A genuine agent will be only too happy to oblige - if you get fobbed off then you know it is not worth wasting time with that agent. There are plenty of genuine ones around, so don't bother with the dodgy ones.

A bona-fide agent will generally meet you in a proper office rather than in his house or in a car park somewhere. Membership of one of the professional bodies like FNAIM is likely to indicate that an agent is properly registered, though unfortunately it doesn't mean the agent is either very efficient or totally honest, and neither does the fact that an agent operates independently of such an association mean there is anything dodgy about them.

Websites like www.infobilan.com let you check that a buniness is registered.

[Matthew]

[quote user="Will "]

It's not quite correct to say that using an unregistered agent is not your problem - it is in fact illegal to use an unregistered business, and although under those circumstances you would be unlikely to be prosecuted, you would have no comeback if things go wrong. It's also unwise to put your trust in a notaire, not all of these are whiter than white and some are known to turn a blind eye to dodgy agencies who put work their way (it's always the agent who gets penalised, not the notaires he is in league with).

[/quote]

Even though you make your point, i don't agree.

1 - He's not "using" an unregistered agent, the seller is. Herbi is not paying the agent anything, so if he is actually unregistered, the seller and the agent only could face prosecutions.

2- A notaire who makes a fault may face bannishment, so there's little chance he would agree to act anything that cuold make him lose his job. He is a state representative, and knows better than anyone else the consequences of such a mistake like signing a warrant or a compromis with an unregistered agent. Furthermore, such a thing is so obvious you can be 99 % sure it's going to be discovered.

3 - Good faith is in first line here : a buyer who gets screwed by either an unregistered agent and/or a fishy notaire will  ALWAYS win in court, even though is not the point in this case.

However, I agree about the asking his siret and carte professionnelle part...

Matthew.

[andyh4]

Sorry Matthew

but if you as the buyer pay the agent (as happens in almost all French transactions) then you are employing hikm not the seller.  The seller may well have engaged him, but that is not the same as employing.

 

As to the other two points, your faith is touching - or do you believe that things like Poulson can only happen in the UK?

[Will]

Quite, Andy, corruption in government circles (even at a local level) is unheard of in France, isn't it? [:)].

Recommended reading - 'Selling French Dreams' by Alan Biggins, which rather lifts the lid on agences immobilieres (and notaires). It's quite old, but the practices described still go on, believe me.

[herbi]

Thanks for your comments so far, quite enlightening I think!  The person concerned can be a bit pushy and defensive so wary of asking for his registration number at this point - should have done it at the beginning -, is there another way of checking?  If we are not liable for anything then perhaps there's no point doing anything, but we do not want to commit any kind of offence.  It is further complicated as the vendor works part time for the agent so we don't want to cause more difficulties than necessary.  It might all be OK and above board, I do not like gossip in any country and never wish to talk ill of others but feel that we would be foolish to completely ignore any warnings, being new to the area & the system.

Any definitve answers on who's 'employing' the agent?

Thanks

Herbi

[Matthew]

To me, the seller is empoying the agent, even though the buyer is paying him.

The seller signs a warrant to the agent for him to sell the house.

But I might be wrong, I'm no professional... Or I might be blinded by my faith...

Matthew.

[Viv]

It is worth looking around the immediate area to see who else is advertising the house as prices can vary enormously between differnet immos and notaires. Even if you have signed with the English estate agent to the effect that your can't buy the house through any one else, if you do see it for sale at a lower price ,you can  negotiate on the asking price with this estate agent.

BTW did you get my PM yesterday?

[Will]

I'm not a professional myself, though I have a lovely wife who is. As the buyer pays the fees then the agent is, technically, working for the buyer, even though the agent is instructed initially by the seller. It is a difficult area, and one where there is no clear answer.

The fact that in this case the vendor works for the agency means it is not so likely that other agents will be undercutting this one - though it's always possible. When comparing prices, do make sure what is included. Not just in terms of fees, but land and outbuildings can vary between agents, it's up to the agent to market the property in the way that he feels will appeal to his target clients. The agents with higher fees can often (though not necessarily) be the most effective for the seller and the most helpful to the buyer, so it doesn't pay to be a penny pincher. However, as Viv suggests, if the same package is for sale elsewhere for less money then you have a cast-iron negotiating platform.

Some might be alarmed about the vendor working for the agent. As long as everybody is up front about this and is not trying to hide the fact it need not be a problem. After all, we have ourselves bought and sold more than once in France though the agency where Mrs Will works (it has, in fact, worked in the buyer's favour, so need not be a cause for concern at all).

[P]

It is a good point, as we have discovered, not to believe a word that the agent says - I think some of them have been throw out of the used car salesmens union bcause they are too dishonest.

I am sure though that some are very genuine but when you discover that you have been told blatant untruths, who do you trust?

Now, to take this slightly off subject.......

Go to an agent, sign the Bon de Visite view the house and then see it with another agent but, say, more land, inclusuion of an out building etc, i.e. it is not the same overall package. Would this mean that you could then view an buy it through the other agent disregarding the original Bon de Visite as the package is not the same.

Paul

[tebee]

[quote user="P"]

Now, to take this slightly off subject.......

Go to an agent, sign the Bon de Visite view the house and then see it with another agent but, say, more land, inclusuion of an out building etc, i.e. it is not the same overall package. Would this mean that you could then view an buy it through the other agent disregarding the original Bon de Visite as the package is not the same.

Paul

[/quote]

 

I would guess not as , unless you where subdividing an existing area you would still be buying the original cadsatral plot plus some others

 

Tom

Http://www.grumpyoldgitsinfrance.com