Using UK style hot and cold water tanks in France

[Ngcr2004]

Any advice from French plumbing experts gratefully received on this one.

Is there any reason why I should not install a typical UK style hot water tank with a cold water tank in the loft, provided that adequate frost protection is installed? Certainly, the standard UK 1/2" and 3/4" brass plumbing fittings can be used with smaller French olives and fittings to convert them to fit the undersized French copper pipe. This means that I could use a conventional UK sourced hot water tank and locate a cold tank in the loft, to be suppied from the cold mains. I see this as preferable to using an electric chaud-eau system and would suit me as I plan to use a large wood burner for hot water and rads in the winter, supplemented by an oil boiler as and when required, and for summer use.

Many thanks

NGCR

[Nick Trollope]

I rather wonder why you would want to.

I doubt if there is any legal reason why you should not but, eg. what happens when your ballcock gives up the ghost? What happens when you fail to sell the house because a propective purchaser doesn't like the plumbing?

A French chauffe eau will be cheaper than a UK HW tank and can be included in a oil-fired or log-powered system. The Fr pressurised hot water system does away with the need for thermostatic shower valves, power showers and the like. IMHO it is far better than the UK system.

I believe that C-E's with indirect heating coils are available, as are combi oil boilers (and gas boilers, obviously).

All French plumbing fittings are imperial sizes. This also applies to taps, etc.

When in Rome & all that.......

PS. IANAP

[Michael]

There is no reason why you should not use uk materials or any other countries gear.Nick you do not use pressurised hws clyinders or systems with multifuel log/coal boilers.only open vented systems.Allso if your going to tie in an indirect cly into the boiler i would tend to use the minimum of a 42/18 cly with the heat leak rad.Your wrong when you say french systems are better than the uk .The brits have forgotten what the french are still learning when it comes to design/ materials and installation.All french fittings are not imperial, lets say Bsp[something else we gave the world ]threads then on to metric pipework.Happy plumbing.Ps the french sells ballcocks.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]There is no reason why you should not use uk materials or any other countries gear.Nick you do not use pressurised hws clyinders or systems with multifuel log/coal boilers.only open vented systems.All...[/quote]

The OP was asking for reasons why he should NOT install UK plumbing parts in France.

My fundamental reason for NOT using them is that there is no reason to do so. Your posting is full of "plumb-speak" (I assume that "cly" is cylinder, although I can't see why, why not cyl?), so I am sure you know what you are talking about, although I have (as an owner) had quite alot of experience with both plumbing systems and, to reiterate my point and in my humble opinion, the French system is better (for a whole stack of reasons aside from those mentioned above).

British Standard Pipe sizes are used on all fittings, (by definition something that fits to something else, such as a tap, valve etc) as far as I am aware. That aside, aren't UK 15mm pipes metric? Again, being (eg) 1/4" or 1/2", these fittings are imperial in dimension (& BSP, BS21).

As I said before, i am not a plumber.

May your life be leak-free (even if one does solder ones French plumbing, but that's a different story, eh?)

 

[Iceni]

As modern UK houses no longer have cold tanks in the loft why you should want to do so is beyond me. They stem from the time when water was only pumped for part of the day and so some sort of holding tank had to placed as high as possible.

Each to their own I suppose. Many of the UK boilers are made in France, I think our last one was.

[Michael]

Nick you have missed it completely. Ngcr2004 asked about using uk materials,there is no problem with that.Combining multifuel boilers with pressure systems there is.If you are going to give advice tell it right.I think the plane he is on is about open vented systems combining oil fired and multifuel back boiler to install eventually,there you cannot use pressurised systems.If you know better please advise me.I'm not a cook but.......

Iceni I am not going to get involved in a waterloo over the rights and wrongs of your misconception of modern uk houses in uk having no water tanks in the attic. He is talking about multifuel wood/coal back boilers on this thread to be fitted in france.And i am more concerned on the safety aspect.If you understand what this guy is asking please advise him how to plumb it in with out a header tank,instead of coming in with non advice.Happy days.

[Val_2]

Without an electric chauffe-eau you will not qualify for half price night electricity. Also depending on where your property is, many french houses do not have attics as such like english houses and holiday homes usually have the greniers renovated into more living space,hence the chauffe-eau which can be fitted more or less anywhere on a wall or tripod out of the way,upstairs or down. You may also have to increase your house insurance as well. As someone has already said, if you wish to sell up at a later date or need a french plumber in an emergency,it may put people off.

[Moulin]

For what its worth in my opinion the French pressurised hot water system is far superior to the UK gravity feed.

‘At home’ we have a hot water tank/Emersion Heater stuck in an Airing Cupboard that takes up a ridiculous amount of space, a header tank that blocks access to the attic and minimal pressure in the hot water, (my mother has a bungalow with no hot water pressure at all). Hot water takes an age to reach the taps and running a bath takes for ever.

In France the chauffe-eau is positioned out of the way, hot water arrives at the taps quickly and there is no need for a Power Shower – don’t forget you can’t fit an electric shower in France.

I may be wrong but I’m sure I have seen adverts for ‘duel fuel’ Chauffe’s, they us a hot water coil from the central heating boiler and electricity.

[Miki]

 

 Hot water takes an age to reach the taps and running a bath takes for ever.

 

In France the chauffe-eau is positioned out of the way, hot water arrives at the taps quickly and there is no need for a Power Shower – don’t forget you can’t fit an electric shower in France.

I may be wrong but I’m sure I have seen adverts for ‘duel fuel’ Chauffe’s, they us a hot water coil from the central heating boiler and electricity.

 

Sorry but that is far too general,  this will completely depend on where the chauffeau is, in relation to whichever hot tap is opened. We have friends who have the chauffeau in the cellar and the house is on 3 floors, so how long do you think it takes hot water to reach the sink on the 2nd floor !!  Shouldn't be there of course but their house is not the only one we know where some showers or sinks (inc kitchen) are a fair way from the chauffeau, so........

 

Sorry again but I have seen electric showers not only on sale but in situe as well, the rules are different in the way they are fittted here plus of course with the high power they require, dictates that many houses with their low kw tarif cannot use them.

 

I have to say that Michael has tried to answer the original posters question, no one else has answered his actual Q. (inc mine !!)

 

 

[Ngcr2004]

As a later respondent has quite correctly noted, a key reason why I asked this question about what we could refer to as a “Typical UK cold / hot water” system (which I agree should be a vented system), is because I wish to use a back boiler as a primary heat source.

This is because I have a plentiful supply of free wood on my doorstep. In these circumstances why would I wish to demonstrate my integration into France by rushing blindly into using a Chauffe Eau (CE), simply because it’s French and I am now in France?

In my humble opinion, the CE system is a primitive option created at low cost to meet a basic need for hot water. But CE’s exchange relatively easy, go-anywhere, cheap installation for high running costs. Hello? Any electric water heating system HAS to bring high running costs, unless one is parsimonious with baths, showers and hot water – which we are not. CE’s also offer an uncertain life span. This doubt is I believe reflected in the terms of the guarantees generally offered on CE’s.

Furthermore, as a range of “UK type” replacement parts, including ballcocks (pardon my French) are available in France and with all this wood waiting to be cut, I ask again, why should I not install a “UK type” system?

As far as re-sale is concerned, I believe it would be a mistake to regard the french as small c - conservative, from a plumbing or indeed any any perspective. In general, I regard the French as some of most adventurous in terms of different methods or new technologies. And a simple hot water / heating system of this kind would hardly be viewed as "rocket-science" by the average French plumber. Also anyone buying our house will also have all that free wood piling up.

Therefore, for me, and I suspect most French people, practicality and cost will always over-rule "French is Best" or a “When in Rome” argument. Besides – I need the exercise associated with cutting and splitting all that wood!

Very many thanks for the on-going advice. NGCR

[Moulin]

Miki,

Of course you are right but I was comparing like for like, ie. two story three bed etc etc. The water delivery in our french house is without doubt superior and the Chauffe is positioned out of the way in the garage. Yes there are electric showers in france so I should have been more specific, what I meant as you know is that to get good flow in winter when the incoming mains is colder you need a 9/10Kw shower and few houses have that capacity without turning everything else off.

                                                                                                                            

NCGR,

I take your point and agree the french system is fuel inefficient but my point is that a gravity feed system will never be as user friendly as a pressurised system, therefore if I wanted to do what you are I would go for a pumped system to get the best of both worlds.

[Miki]

I know what you mean Moulin but I guess, as is so common, it is difficult with any forum, to write something that comes out, exactly as you mean it to.

 

 

 

[Ngcr2004]

I fully accept your view that a pressuised system is more user friendly but as I will be using a wood burner with a back boiler coupled with a oil boiler, as and when required, won't I be stuck with a pumped and vented heating and hot water system?

NGCR

[Moulin]

NGCR,

 

There are several ways of doing this. The simplest and the one I would go for is to have a pump and accumulator on the outlet from the hot water tank that just pressurises the supply to the taps etc, as the pressure drops with demand the pump starts up, basically like a power shower but one pump runs the entire house. Obviously the system must be designed around this as the pipe size on the inlet to the tank must be correct to ensure it can fill up at no less than the rate water is being drawn off.

If you have a large property or want to locate the system well away from some of the outlets you can run a supply and return loop using the same basic principle.

 

You can, depending on the type of boilers you use, pressurise the entire system via the cold water main. I must admit I have no idea about the compatibility of Back Boilers, this would require some research, but Gas and Oil units are readily available as this system is becoming the norm in small commercial premises with limited outlets such as offices.

 

Good luck whatever you do, by the way have you thought about Solar or better still Geo-thermal, I believe there may be grants available for these.

 

Stuart

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote]NGCR, There are several ways of doing this. The simple[/quote]

"...by the way have you thought about Solar or better still Geo-thermal, I believe there may be grants available for these...."

 

From what I've found out so far, these are less 'grants' as such, and more like 'tax credits'  which to be of any value require you to be paying income tax.  I'm still researching this, however, so don't take it as gospel.

 

paul

Meanwhile, back at the original posting.....

I'd go for a pressurised domestic HW heated indirectly by an open-vented primary: coil + obligatory heat sink of some sort (rad + towel rail).

[Ngcr2004]

Many thanks for the additional postings - yes I agree about Solar and geo Thermal and have broadly costed both sytems.Sadly the installation cost of Geo Thermal appears to be very high by comparison although the payback is good and not so subject to day/night variation of course but on a cost bais it looks as through a combination of solar and wood with back burner to both provide the primary supply of water and heating in the appropriate seasons, with some form of higher cost back up to fill the gaps. By pressurised, do you mean simply pumped or totally closed with a pressure vessel for expansion?

Thanks again

NGCR

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote]Many thanks for the additional postings - yes I agree about Solar and geo Thermal and have broadly costed both sytems.Sadly the installation cost of Geo Thermal appears to be very high by comparison a...[/quote]

"....By pressurised, do you mean simply pumped or totally closed with a pressure vessel for expansion ?..."

 

No I meant a mains pressure system:

Imagine an ordinary French electric chauffeau, plumbed directly to the mains water supply; the flow from both the hot and cold taps will be (virtually) the same. Except that this chauffeau has a coil in it like a UK HW cylinder. The water in the coil (gravity feed, heated in your wood burner, ) is the primary, the hot water in the body of the chauffeau, and coming out of the taps is the secondary. The expansion would be dealt with like any chauffeau, by either an inbuilt expansion tank (or just a head-space in the top of the vessel) and/or a pressure relief valve called a 'groupe de securitie' (sp): as the water is heated and expands the valve weeps and a little runs out (it is plumbed into a drain).

The good thing about this system is that it has no pumps to fail, and there would be no problems when the electricity goes off. (this is also the reason your primary MUST be designed with a big enough 'heat sink' to provide a sufficient margin of safety if - say - the boiler was banging away full blast, heating all the radiators in the house, when the electricity went off and the pump stopped. Less of a problem with the oil-boiler as there would be only the residual heat to deal with, but a wood burner, blazing away with a full load, would be quite a different matter).

 

[Quillan]

Pardon my ignorance but in Leroy Merlin they have hot water tanks with indirect heating coils fitted, yes I said coils, you can buy them with one or two. Surely you can run a traditional French pressurised system for the actual hot and cold water but connect both the oil fired and wood burning stove to the coils via a pump and header tank. I note that the oil fired systems in France do come with an expansion tank and all the other bits and pieces built in to make a presurised system, probably why they cost so much.