chauffe eau?

[Plato comes homePlato]

Jim le G..I forgot...the use of the cursed "copper nails in fuses" as we say(usually several strands of 30 amp or a length of the awful french 2.5 sq unstranded......doesn't affect the RCD WHEN OPERATING ON LEAKAGE so abnormal earthing csa is not for that reason once RCD's are involved as leakage protection and the circuit breaker in france requires in general no greater protection cuircuitry than in Australia....say....give it some thought and get back as you seem to have a grip...thinking about non MEN systems of the past, of argile, of distances from substations of the poor mechanical protection usually seen on older french installations especially...of impedence and consideratons of main neutral breakage...see if you can give me some other ideas...

The possibility of earthing being unintentionally becoming part of a lightning arrester system hasn't been raised either..

Which of what I mentioned are the furphies?..or are there any...?your associates foaming at the mouth there will I hope pitch-in and help...

cheers

 

[PaulC<P><IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>Paul, Debbie and Josh, <BR>London & Dept 24<BR><a target=_blank href="http:www.les-brandes.net" target=_blank>http:www.les-brandes.net<A><BR><P>]

As I knew our brainless friend would not be able to resist I dug out the book and looked up the IEE rules for protective conductors.

While the actual calculations for protective conductors run to a page and a half the whole idea is to limit the shock voltage to below 50v while the protective device operates, the only way to do this is by having the correct size conductor for the application, the bottom line is as follows..

----------

{Table 5.7} allows selection (rather than calculation) of sizes for earthing and bonding conductors. The rules applying to selection are:

For phase conductors up to 16 mm², the protective conductor has the same size as the phase conductor.

----------

I think this whole conversation proves just one thing "A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing"

This will be my last post on the subject.

Paul G Court B.Sc M.Sc MIEE C.Eng

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have read through this thread with ever increasing disbelief. The subject has to do with how far a chauffe-eau can be sited from a shower, not whether Australia is inhabited by mad dingos, or the cross sectional area of earth cables.

Muich of the pollution and ill temper has been caused by Plato. Throughout Usenet, (discussion forums/fora) sadly, attention seekers have made their presence felt by insulting other contributors, making half truths and generally behaving exactly as he does. In non-moderated groups long and bitter experience has led us to understand that the ONLY way of dealing with Trolls (as such attention seekers are called) is to ignore them totally. They detest it, and it usually causes a short term increase in aggressive vituperation, but in the long term, they disappear, as their nourishment - the frustration and anger of others - is denied them.

In moderated groups, the remedy is simpler. You require the moderator to do his/her job and deny access to the Troll. I am therefore inviting you all to join me in asking Will (aided and abetted by the other moderators, if he sees fit) to do his job.

Therefore, Will, in my capacity as a member in good standing of this forum, who wishes to continue to be able to participate without reading racially motivated insults and stupid aggression, I formally ask you to exclude the person posting under the pseudonym of Plato, from this and other forums of "Living France".

Thank you for reading this far. My apologies to all for adding yet another off topic post to this simple thread.

[Alcazar]

I have to agree with the last two posts. The one about IEE regs just goes to prove my point. I've copied here one of the first points that Pluto made that came to my notice, buried as it was in anti-English sentiment:

<<Why should pommies leave literally thousands of defective houses in France for other poor mugs simply because they are too mean and too stupid to get proper tradesmen to do their work.>>

Which goes to show, I believe, that ALL his subsequent nastiness, stroppiness, call it what you will, is designed to deflect us from seeing that HE WAS WRONG.

Yes, regulations may make little sense, and there may be another, equally safe method, but if a regulation exists, perhaps we ought to follow it..........not least of all for the reason Plato gave.

I've highlighted the words "too stupid", as I also took the time to look up the word "stupid" in the Oxford English dictionary. One of the definitions is "obtuse", and I would suggest that Plato IS being obtuse by attempting to blind us with (unneccessary) science, while not answering the actual question I asked.

A someone with a decent degree in pure physics AND an HGV license, I'm pretty certain that I could bind our friend into knots with questions about space, time etc, not to mention mechanics, on the one hand, or rules and regulations for HGV drivers, haulage companies and traffic police on the other, but to what end?

So Plato, I'll not bother to look back for your original question, which must have been so buried in cr*p that I missed it, nor will I attempt to allow you to stand on my shoulders by possibly getting the answer to the second one wrong. Unlike you, I DON'T claim to know everything

Perhaps, since he can't take a hint, it WOULD be better if he were dispatched back to whichever part of cyberspace he came from?

Alcazar

[Kazanton]

After reading through this thread, I became quite confused from some of the contradictory and downright dangerous postings. Especially the ones coming from (a certain poster.) So I asked a friend of mine, who lives here in France and is a experienced plumber, what he thought of it. Here is his reply:

Not everything (a certain poster) says is bo**ocks, but most is !!

To clarify: Water heating apparatus is advertised as "Chauffe-eau Electrique" for the normal type of "ballon" talked about.

Whilst it's true that the larger the pipe bore, the greater the flow, this can also reduce the pressure, so a maximum of 16mm pipe bore for shower/bath/washhand basins is good. This is then reduced to 14 or even 12 mm (I plump for 14mm) at the connections to taps etc.

The loss of water associated with long pipe runs is negligable, my own shower is 15 metres of pipe work away from the heater and the amount coming thru before it gets hot is about a litre. Increasing the pipe size to 22 mm would almost double that amount !! Lagging the pipes does very little good, unless you are taking a shower every hour or so, even lagged, the water will lose it's heat in about an hour. If you want to save water, draw off the cold that comes thru and use it to wash the car !!

I would like to thank my friend TrevP for taking the time to clarify this!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Belinda,

I hesitate to disagree with so august a personage as yourself, but I can't help myself.

You said

So I asked a friend of mine, who lives here in France and is a experienced plumber, what he thought of it. Here is his reply:

Whilst it's true that the larger the pipe bore, the greater the flow, this can also reduce the pressure, so a maximum of 16mm pipe bore for shower/bath/washhand basins is good. This is then reduced to 14 or even 12 mm (I plump for 14mm) at the connections to taps etc.

Hang on, hang on. Reduced pressure?

I'm sorry, but this is simply flying in the face of common sense. If you take two hosepipes, one 15mm and the other 23mm and connect them in turn to the same tap, you're going to get more water flowing out of the wider hosepipe, right? If you connect a device to the outlet, is your plumber friend saying that the _pressure_ at the device is LOWER if you use a wider pipe? Because if he is he's wrong, I'm afraid. The pressure losses along the pipe are a function of the friction (increased as the pipe diameter is reduced) turbulence, especially round bends  (increased with reduced diameter) and viscosity (losses increase with reducing cross sectional area). So if the pressure at the closed end is going to be substantially the same, since they are connected to the mains, the pressure at the device end will drop with increasing flow, and drop more with smaller diameter pipe.

The loss of water associated with long pipe runs is negligable,

Water flow, I guess you mean. That all depends upon the diameter of the pipe, the flow you're seeking to get through it and the length of the run and the initial pressure, as well as the resistence of the shower head itself. Given that water pressures in France (connected directly to the mains) tends to be higher (often 5 bar) than that in a private house in the UK , with a header tank say 20 metres maximum above the shower head giving 2 bars only, it is true that flow in a shower here in France tend to be higher. But believe you me, if you try to get a high flow through a long narrow pipe, you'll get losses alright. And if you re-run in a larger diameter pipe those losses will be reduced.

That said, I am in complete agreement with you when you say that in France, and with typical mains water pressures, 16 mm is ample for feeding a shower. However, add a bath, a sink, a toilet and try to make them ALL run at the same time and you'll see why _I_ put in an 18mm feed to each bathrooms, taking off 10 mm for toilet and sink and then splitting into 12mm for shower and bath taps.

I think you should ask your plumber to explain again about reduced pressures. (VBG)