At what point can immobiliers claim you as a customer?

[Beryl]

I know that you have to be careful in France when using immos and viewing / buying houses but at what point can they actually claim you are their customer?

Eg I looked at a house last summer and had to sign a document preventing me from doing a deal with the owner and cutting them out. Other Immo's have not asked me to do this.

Does merely asking a question about a property on their website, class you as a client ? If I then went direct to the owner, would I be in hot water?

Is there a definitive line that has to be crossed or is it a woolly area?

[Bob T]

Not sure about the answer, but if I was an French estate agent selling a house in a community and a foreigner went behind my back and bought a house direct from the owner after seeing my advert, not only would I be miffed, but I suspect that all my French mates in the community would too.

[Cat]

Beryl, they can only claim you as a customer if

a) you buy a house from them, or

b) you have signed a bon de visite for a property and eventually end up buying that house from someone else

Even if you sign a B de V and then subsequently buy the same house cheaper elsewhere, the bon de visite is very rarely enforced due to the cost, length of time and general faff involved (unless perhaps you were thinking of buying a château or something for several million euros, in which case the agent would stand to lose an awful lot of commission).

Other than that, you're free to shop around as you please.

 

[Beryl]

Thank you Cat, that has reassured me. 

 

[tj]

[quote user="beryl"]

Does merely asking a question about a property on their website, class you as a client ? If I then went direct to the owner, would I be in hot water?

[/quote]

Just to clarify your question,

you have seen a property on an agents website that is of interest to you, you wish to ask a question but dont want to pay his fee, for. what amounts to an introduction to a property, which you otherwise might not have found?

morally, of course you are liable for his fee,

just one question for you, surely you will need the address of the property to view it? in which case you would be back to signing the agreement with them.

 

   

[Beryl]

I know that if I sign a bon de visite that I am obliged to buy from that immobilier until the bon de visite expires. I have no problem with that and everybody knows exactly where they stand legally.

I have recently enquired about a property via a website, I haven't signed anything, I haven't visited them, just asked a question that does not identify the properties location in any way.

 I don't see that this can be classed as an introduction for the purposes of tying me to one immo.  Morally, I would want a bit more than one question answered to justify an immos fee and I would rather deal in legalities than moralities when buying a house.

I have also found myself speaking to different immos about the same property entirely by accident, because the one immo showed a picture of the rear of the house and an internal picture and the other showed a picture of the front of the house and the garden !

 

 

[tj]

[quote user="beryl"]

 Morally, I would want a bit more than one question answered to justify an immos fee and I would rather deal in legalities than moralities when buying a house.

[/quote]

So, now we have determined that you have no problem with immorality...........

the bottom line is this, the moment the agent gives you the address of the property, he is entitled to his fee if you decide to buy, he can also recover through the courts, at no cost to himself, upto 4000 euros, if you try to go behind his back.

Also be aware that the french owners will have no allegiance to you, and will most likely send you to the agent anyway. 

[Beryl]

[quote user="tj"][quote user="beryl"]

 [/quote]

So, now we have determined that you have no problem with immorality...........

[/quote]

Don't make assumptions about me please;[:@]  or I might make a few about you and your business!

I would not do anything illegal which is why I was asking for the exact legal position as to what constitutes an introduction.

[tj]

[quote user="beryl"][quote user="tj"][quote user="beryl"]

 [/quote]

So, now we have determined that you have no problem with immorality...........

[/quote]

Don't make assumptions about me please;[:@]  or I might make a few about you and your business!

I would not do anything illegal which is why I was asking for the exact legal position as to what constitutes an introduction.

[/quote]

 

since foregoing moral obligations is not generally illegal, I would say you need to provide a really good reason to deny him a fee, since he has a legal right to it, if he has been in anyway instrumental in you obtaining the property.

 

[Will]

The concept of a 'verbal contract' still has some meaning in France, despite the introduction of things like the so-called 7-day cooling off period (thanks to EU law) muddying the waters more than somewhat. As BobT says, you would not endear yourself to anybody by breaking any verbal agreement to purchase through an agent, and you would most likely appear as somebody not to be trusted.

So the answer is - don't agree to anything until you are ready to do do. Asking questions about a house, even in an agent's office, is hardly an offer to purchase.

I would, however, have thought that visiting the house with the agent would be taken as a serious indication that if buying the house you are prepared to do so through the agent rather than going behind the agent's back, whether or not you sign anything. But I am not a lawyer and doubt if that has ben tested in the courts.

[Llantony]

Unless I've missed something, Beryl has asked a question via a website and not been given the address of the property (French estate agents never do give addresses in their publicity like British ones usually do, so you have to ask to find out which area a property is in - just to see whether you'd be interested).  So she's hardly under any obligation whether moral or legal.

I agree that if an agent takes you round a property it would be mean to avoid paying their commission. 

We looked at property belonging to a friend of a friend and were told that the price would be lower if we didn't go via the estate agent (never found out why, when the buyer pays the commission - posted here on that and got some abuse...).  The trouble is, if we looked at other properties on that agent's books we'd be shown this one and then feel we'd have to pay her if we bought it.  Anyway, she's in our village (I can see the office from our current house)and is a friend of another French friend, so I still don't know if I could be bold enough buy a property on her books direct from the vendor to avoid the commission.

 

[Beryl]

I would never dream of going direct to the owner if  the agent had shown me round the property.

All I was trying to do was clarify roughly when and where the line would be crossed that would legally ( whether verbally or in writing)oblige a buyer to deal exclusively with that agent.

[Will]

Llantony, all you would have to do would be to tell the agent that you have already viewed that particular house, and have not yet decided. So unless the seller has given the agent an exclusive mandat, in which case you couldn't legally buy it privately ayway, there will be no problem.

Also, if the agent has, for argument's sake, a house at 107,000€ including his fees, meaning the seller gets 100,000, the seller may offer to sell it to you direct at 103,000€, meaning you save 4000€ and the seller pockets another 3000€. One problem with this is that most people know that the seller is getting more than they would if selling via an agent, so will want to offer accordingly. If you are comfortable with that, no problem again. And the higher 'nett vendeur' price could (but not necessarily) mean you end up paying very slightly more in taxes and legal fees.

[Llantony]

Hi Will,

Yes, I realise that could happen.  It's just that when we bought, this same estate agent charged us commission on top of the agreed price so I couldn't see why a buyer would bother to go behind the agent's back as it's us who paid more.