Bathroom Suites

[P]

[quote user="WJT"]

By the way, I assume BSP is a brand name or either an acronym for a curse word. [:D]

[/quote]

BSP = British Standard Pipe - which means using 1/2" connections and not a mm size.

Paul

[WJT]

This is a loo we purchased at B&Q in the UK. The reason I brought it up was because I didn't want to make the same mistake with the loos here in France.

The standing level of the water in the pan is too low and appears to be irreparable (two plumbers called out to try and adjust the level). We have also tried pouring the extra water in from a bucket as you suggested and it just disappears, it doesn't reach a higher point.

I don't want to go into too much detail as you can imagine but there doesn't seem to be a problem with forming a water trap because there are no odours. However, the water is just too low for a proper working loo and I also think the actual design must not be very good. As I said before, this is something we must inform overnight guests about. [:$]

I am happy to hear that you believe that French loos conform, perhaps it is just the UK or B&Q. Having said that it sounds as if Will has had the same problem with a Porcher French one.

P, shows you how much I know, I thought BSP could have stood for something like B****y B*****s, something I have thought of calling B&Q more than once.[:D]

[Chancer]

[quote user="WJT"]

I don't want to go into too much detail as you can imagine but there doesn't seem to be a problem with forming a water trap because there are no odours. However, the water is just too low for a proper working loo [/quote]

 

If the water forms a trap and you have no odours then as far as I can make out you have a working loo, or is it a question of aesthetics/ not wanting to see things poking above the surface (sorry!)

I dont mean to be flippant but from the above I really cant see why you have had to change the pans?

Or maybe I can .... - my W.C pan in the uk is quite old and holds a considerable amount of water between flushes which prevents things sticking (sorry again!) by comparison my modern water efficient ones including a sani-broyeur have a much smaller residual volume and hence level, is this the problem that you percieve? which I put down to modern design and do not see as a problem but does require more cleaning.

[Gluestick]

Could this be due to water conservation?

I notice that the water level in the new loo pan in a UK property we have just renovated is considerably lower than than the much older pan in our UK house. Also, the exit pipe is far smaller diameter than the original and thus the plumber had to use an adapative connector.

Also the quite old loo in our French house seems to maintain a low level, too.

The water in the U bend conforms to the basic rule of water finding its own level (since, highschool physics, the atmospheric pressure is equal on both sides): same as a "U" tube or liquid manometer, used for measuring and setting pressures, and finding surface levels. In a sewerage system, both a mains sewer and a septic tank are vented to air (the "Stink" Pipe).

 The Loo pan water level will be predicated by the absolute height of the exit before it discharges into the waste pipe: therefore, the water level in the pan will always sit at the precise level of the highest point in the upwards pointing moulding at the rear of the pan.

Effective operation is really governed by the volume of water that discharges into the pan when the cistern is flushed, rather than the pan level.

Problems arise when the outlet (to main sewer) or septic tank etc, becomes blocked and/or when back pressure is created by blockages further along the waste pipe, and then and only then can the pan level rise.

 

[WJT]

Wow Gluestick, you are blinding me with science [:D]. I am here in France at the moment but perhaps I should ask a plumber about that when we return.

J.R. we haven't changed the pan we had it installed just a few years ago when we had a new bathroom fitted. I do know what you mean about the modern loos we had another fitted at the same time but not bought from B&Q. It does need cleaning more etc.. as you said but the B&Q one has to be cleaned every time. It is not only awful but as I mentioned before it can be quite embarrassing to have to explain to guests.

 I just want to make sure that I get good and proper ones here in France. Now that you mention it, I do miss the old ones that would fill up about 3/4 full. Maybe we should consider reclaimed loos. [:)]

 

[Chancer]

WJT

I see we are in accordance with each other on this subject to be discussed somewhat indirectly!

It probably is to do with water conservation but the volume in the pan remains unchanged so effectively is only filled once.

The reason for the adaptor being used is the UK has 110mm soil pipes and France 100mm and many toilets now sold in the UK are made for the continental market. However to add confusion I bought 2 bricodepot suspended toilets, they both turned out to have 110mm spigot diameter, one my friend fitted in the UK without problem (I told him that he would have to adapt it) my one wouldn't fit here in France without the bricodepot 110 to 100mm adaptor

 

I also got fed up with having to clean my modern loos every time and had been considering realigning my personal evacuation plumbing, but now will keep my eye open at brocantes for old wc pans.

Toilet humour - where would we be without it!

 

[Gyn_Paul]

Is this loo bought from B & Q a button push flush, comme les Francaise, or a siphon flush (push a lever type) like in the UK ?

The UK practice of putting something in the tank of older toilets (or replacing them with smaller capacity ones) to reduce the capacity pays little regard for the fact that the because of the slower flow (to start with at least) the design of a standard UK lavatory pan needs the flow of the greater volume of water both to clear the contents and to scour the surface. If not, one is reduced to flushing again ! - Classic example of the law of unintended consequences: one now uses 2 x the reduced volume (8 L) rather than 1 x the original volume (12L). OK, I may not have the figures exactly right, but you get the point. 

The French flush, by contrast, deposits the entire contents of the tank at the push of a button, with the greatest volume and speed of water being at the start of the flush, by virtue of its being propelled by the weight of water in the tank. Thus manages to achieve more with less (that's the theory, at least: but we've all seen UK toilets which function perfectly, and French ones which leave much to be desired, I'm sure !).

Gluestick :

".... The Loo pan water level will be predicated by the absolute height

of the exit before it discharges into the waste pipe: therefore, the

water level in the pan will always sit at the precise level of the

highest point in the upwards pointing moulding at the rear of the pan....."

I know I'm being a picky pedant, but I think actually you mean the lowest point.

"....Problems arise when the outlet (to main sewer) or septic tank etc,

becomes blocked and/or when back pressure is created by blockages

further along the waste pipe, and then and only then can the pan level

rise...."

This was what I was working towards with the questions in my earlier posting. Another posibility is that a long waste pipe (without an air vent as a means of balancing and replacing the air pushed out by the force of the flush) can have the effect of sucking too much water out of the pan at the end of the flush.

However, I now suspect it's just a crap design !

[WJT]

[quote user="J.R."]

WJT

I see we are in accordance with each other on this subject to be discussed somewhat indirectly!

It probably is to do with water conservation but the volume in the pan remains unchanged so effectively is only filled once.

The reason for the adaptor being used is the UK has 110mm soil pipes and France 100mm and many toilets now sold in the UK are made for the continental market. However to add confusion I bought 2 bricodepot suspended toilets, they both turned out to have 110mm spigot diameter, one my friend fitted in the UK without problem (I told him that he would have to adapt it) my one wouldn't fit here in France without the bricodepot 110 to 100mm adaptor

 

I also got fed up with having to clean my modern loos every time and had been considering realigning my personal evacuation plumbing, but now will keep my eye open at brocantes for old wc pans.

Toilet humour - where would we be without it!

 

[/quote]

[:D] Never thought I liked it until now!

Would you really consider buying a loo from a brocante? Until this thread it is something I have never considered. The loos that are in our house now are absolutely hideous with cylinders on the wall, the few plumbers and builders that have come out have always had a laugh. They've said that they should be in a museum. However, the only museum they would be admitted to is perhaps Churchill's bunker [:)].

If I thought I could find some pretty ones at the brocante that would work and fill up with water, well it is beginning to sound very interesting.

I do love this forum, I cannot think of anyone I know that would discuss my toilets with me in such depth. Thank you. [:D]

[P]

Just wondering if it is to do with how the water flushes. Could it be that it is creating a wave that flows from the front to the back of the pan, the top of the wave discharges out of the pan, the water then settles and, because the peak of the wave has gone there is less water to fill the pan. To give a normal scenario, water washes down the whole of the bowl and therefore empties into the bottom of the pan less violently giving less of a wave therefore discharging less water - if you get my drift.

Paul

Just brought back that Peter Sellers (I thnik or was it a Carry On) film based on a WC manufacturer

[Chancer]

I will be looking out for an original one at a brocante or car boot sale with the inventors initials "T.J.C." on it.

The first person to respond with the correct name gets a brownie (sic) point.

[Gluestick]

Thomas (not sure about the "J") Crapper: hence the slang word.

Do I now receive a Third (Think Brooklyn accent?[;-)]) prize?

Glynn P: yes, I stand corrected. Far too much to do trying to tidy up 10,001 things before heading of to la Belle on Sunday: only five days but compared to this maniac place, sheer bliss!

BTW: Not too hard to swap a more conventional ballcock for the modern syphonic, which as GP states, take for ever. They are quieter, that's all.

A chum had a chambre d'hote which was a converted farmhouse. As they went through, renovating the guest rooms, they left "their" bit as was. Fascinating old French loo! An eye level tank, connected to mains, sort of like a slim, small cylinder, and when you twisted the essential, high pressure water shot out into the bowl!

Many a chap finished up with his trousers soaked, me included. The trick was to twist it very carefully; and I mean very carefully.............[6]

Cleared the bowl out though and scoured it too!

 

[WJT]

Gluestick, that sounds like the loos we have at the moment. Tall slim metal cylinder hung on the wall and you must push the lever gently because if you push it too hard it will all splash back out on you . But unfortunately, ours are very ugly.

Gyn_Paul, we posted earlier at about the same time so didn't see your question. Yes the B&Q loo is a top button push flush. However, our other one is like this and we don't have the same problem. So I think you could be right just a crap design or as Paul says could be the flow which I guess brings us back to crap design. [:@]

J.R. I haven't noticed loos at reclamation yards here in France but will have to look out for them. The Thomas Crapper ones may be going back too far though, don't think I want wall mounted ones after my experience of the ones we have here. Not sure what's worse having to clean each time or flooding the floor afterwards. [:'(]