Tie in with immobilier

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Hi,

I was in the process of purchasing a property in Loire last year. Unfortunately due to circumstances I had to pull out before legally tied in - I was to be made redundant.

The spectre of redundancy has now been lifted and I am back looking for property again. My first choice is still the previous property however will be taking a look around to see if anything has come up for sale.

The immobillier who was dealing with our purchase was the worst estate agent I have ever dealt with - lying, conniving, etc. He used all the tricks in the book to try and rush us into purchasing - I saw through them all and took the time to make sure the property was the right one for me. When it came to needing to pull out he made sure it was as difficult as possible to use my legal rights, even trying to "run down the clock" until my rights to cancel expired. It was completely at odds with all other immobiliers who we had contacted who were polite and extremely helpful/genuine.

Anyway, my question! I have the details of the seller and would rather deal with them directly to purchase the property bypassing the immobiller. Is there a statutatory period wherein I cannot do this without the vendor incurring charges? I am not trying to get the property any cheaper, just avoid a person I would rather not deal with.

[nomoss]

The Bon de Visite which you signed when you first viewed the property does not oblige you to pay commission to the immobilier, but it does provide proof that you were introduced to the seller by them.

However, there is a contract between the immobilier and the seller, the Mandat de Vente and the seller's current obligations regarding such things as commission due on a sale to someone introduced by the immobilier depend on the terms and validity of that contract.

In general, the Mandat will have a validity of one year, and the seller will have agreed to pay commission on a sale within a year after its expiry to any buyer introduced by the immobilier, so you could have to wait up to two years to avoid the sale attracting commission.

On the other hand, if you simply wish to avoid the agent, there is nothing to prevent you dealing directly with the seller, and as you say you are not trying to get the property any cheaper, any commission paid by the seller is not your concern.

[idun]

Hein?

Did not work like that where I used to live.

When we sold we did not pay the estate agent, it was the buyer, what I did was negociate the amount to be paid down.

So in this case, the OP is the buyer so the estate agent, could go after them, IF as has been said, the contract signed was still valid.

[nomoss]

I have never agreed to pay an estate agent a commission if I bought a property through them, nor made a contract to that effect.

All I have ever done is sign Bons de Visite, through which I recognise that the agent has shown me the property. I do read everything I sign, and have never signed an agreement, as a buyer, to pay anything to an agent in any circumstances whatsoever.

This view seems to support my interpretation of the terms of the Bon de Visite [url]http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/faq/21-bon-de-visite-quelle-valeur-juridique[/url]

If the seller, as Idun suggests, did not agree to pay commission to the agent, then presumably the agent makes a contract to pay his commission with each individual buyer to whom he shows the property,

If the OP made such an agreement to pay commission to the agent he should check the terms of the document he signed. If not, the onus is on the vendor to pay any commission owed to the agent.

[JohnFB]

Nomoss agreed. When I bought I told the agent I had no contract with him and the offer was complete. How it was divided between seller and agent was not my problem as i had signed no mandat. The offer was less than asking, tho I did have to make out two different cheques. Agent and principal.

JFB

[idun]

And maybe that was just where I lived.  I don't know.  I have just looked at the web site of the agence who sold ours and they say/ frais d'agence - inclus and that is in the price of the house.

 And as it is so expensive, then it does make a difference to what one gets when selling, as people who are buying have budgets.

[Chancer]

The buyer pays the asking price whether if its FAI then thats their final figure, otherwise they pay the frais de notaire on top, I am certain that any frais d'immobilier is not added to the figure that they pay as its the seller that has signed the sales contract with the agence.

 

Once the sale is complete the seller recieves the asking price less the agency commission, this is no different to the UK and I have never understood why so many people in France think that its the buyer that pays the agency fee, no-one thinks that in the UK, perhaps its the way it is craftily put over  by the immobiliers to the French sellers who in general believe 100% of what they are told.

 

Signing a bon de visite AFAIK does not mean that you are signing to accept paying the agency commission although this being France it would not surprise me that if a sale went through later to a client introduced by the agent like the OP if the agent finds out and cannot get their money from the seller, perhaps he has moved abroad or whatever, then they would try it on with the buyer as there is a general "someone has got to pay mentality" which is especially prévalant amongst tradesman, I repainted your house in black instead of white but you must still pay, "someone has got to pay"

[mint]

[quote user="Chancer"]

The buyer pays the asking price whether if its FAI then thats their final figure, otherwise they pay the frais de notaire on top, I am certain that any frais d'immobilier is not added to the figure that they pay as its the seller that has signed the sales contract with the agence 

 

[/quote]

AFAIK, the frais de notaire is always on top unless specifically mentioned otherwise.  FAI normally means that the immo's fees are included but not those of the notaire.

Of course, looked at logically, it's always the buyer that pays because the whole pot of money (for property and immo and notaire) comes from the buyer.  Once you get the itemised bill, it will be obvious that the buyer pays for the lot[:D]

However, in this case, the buyer is not aiming for a reduced price, they merely do not wish to deal with the immo.  So, provided all is made clear and witnessed and in the contract, there is nothing to say that they can't deal directly with the buyer.  The buyer, of course, would have to undertake to pay the agent's fees, if there are any.

[nomoss]

It really depends on which way you look at it, but at the end of the day it's the sellers who pay, in that they get what someone is willing to pay for their property less the agent's commission.

I think that the reason so many people in France think the buyer pays the agency on top of the property price is that the buyer often pays the agent when completing the sale; as far as I recall I have often/always made out a separate cheque for the agent's cut - in the days before payment had to be made by bank transfer.

This may enable the Notaire to calculate the taxes based on the net (taxable) price paid for the property, similarly to their usual suggestion to reduce this by declaring part of the price is for furniture.

[Chancer]

A confusing subject and it doesnt take much to confuse me, as I was writing FAI I had a feeling of doubt.

 

What can we all agree on?

 

Well its definitely the buyer that pays the whole amount of money and the seller gets whats left after the notaire has deducted his fees, those of the immo if there is one, the taxes and any outstanding bills, hypotheques etc.

 

My question to the forum is: after a sale or better still during the final days, if an immo approaches the notaire to say "hey I introduced that Customer less than - months ago and I have a signed bon de visite!" and assuming the notaire agrees, out of whose Pocket are the immo fees going to be taken?

 

That is will the seller get less money (my belief) or will the buyer be asked to pay more?

 

An additional question would be, what about if the immo finds out after the sale, who could he legally come after, the buyer or the seller? I have no doubt that in the absence of the seller he would try it on with the buyer even if they werent responsable.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Chancer"]

My question to the forum is: after a sale or better still during the final days, if an immo approaches the notaire to say "hey I introduced that Customer less than - months ago and I have a signed bon de visite!" and assuming the notaire agrees, out of whose Pocket are the immo fees going to be taken?

 

That is will the seller get less money (my belief) or will the buyer be asked to pay more?

 

An additional question would be, what about if the immo finds out after the sale, who could he legally come after, the buyer or the seller? I have no doubt that in the absence of the seller he would try it on with the buyer even if they werent responsable.

[/quote]

I think the link I supplied in my second post on this subject goes some way to answering those questions.