oatesdaniel Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 [quote user="Val_2"]To the OP, because you have a lot of land do not assume for a moment you can build on any of it nor what you want to build, it is very strictly controlled these days and many communes will no longer allow new builds outside of the POS limit due to the immense cost of installing utilities,drainage and access(must be more than 2m width for permission to build so that emergency vehicles can easily enter).Agricultural land,coastal land and woodland are heavily protected against development and as I mentioned earlier, you really need to discuss your plans firstly at the mairie who will simply tell you if it is possible or not before you start expensive and lengthy enquires and applications(those are free but the photos,printing etc are not).Being on council I get to see a lot of applications to build on land which upto even five years ago would have been allowed with no problems but no longer and many folks who bought land and banked it for retirement builds have been left with parcels of land that can no longer be developed even though they may be close to other dwellings.Also the type of new build you wish to construct may not be allowed either, all the materials have to be approved as well as the design.[/quote]Thanks for the advice, but I have already mentioned in a previous post that I know this and I will do my due diligence!! Thank you to everyone for all your advice and kind remarks, I won't be knocking the barn down, nor by the looks renovating it. The likelihood is that I will now build a couple of log houses, but I do need to check on building land etc etc. thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Only my view ...a) You have 'a site' b) You have a building envelope c) You have the option to develop without using up more land d) A redevelopment of a 'worthy' structure may be more to your Mairie's taste/liking e) After basic services are run in you would be working on a secureable and 'dry' site f) By virtue of containment you can match progress to cashflow - maybe do one module quickly and follow on with the fit out of the other slower (I would do all the heavy stuff at once to avoid mess)g) €240,000 is a shed load more than you would likely pay for a barn redevelopment under a new roof...probably in the order of €50,000.00 more and I am including running services in whereas the €240,000 discussed elsewhere will likely assume level site, slabs and services in h) A well executed barn conversion is an investment which may stand for centuries...a garden shed..even a slot together heavy gauge garden shed..remains a garden shed.From a business perspective what gives you quickest return for the type of market you are aiming at? I would guess a conversion of the barn into a common area / kitchen / wet gear change and showers facility (maybe with a sauna) and put mobile homes out round the lakes. This should give you some 2013 lets..mobile homes are about the €45k mark and are also leaseable. This approach should keep the muck, moisture and cooking smells out of the mobile homes (at least to an extent) so would extend their service life and allow the use of larger gas bottles.I wonder if you would make €10k per year out of each van to give a resonable rate of recovery...after ten years the things will be very tired even allowing a soft furishings refurb every three years and new matresses every year.My last piece of advice as I am no expert on any of the matters raised is get to the money quick as you can - The French are far more likely to listen to someone who is visibly 'doing' something than yet another dreamer - (They get lots of them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="BIG MAC"]From a business perspective what gives you quickest return for the type of market you are aiming at? I would guess a conversion of the barn into a common area / kitchen / wet gear change and showers facility (maybe with a sauna) and put mobile homes out round the lakes. This should give you some 2013 lets..mobile homes are about the €45k mark and are also leaseable. This approach should keep the muck, moisture and cooking smells out of the mobile homes (at least to an extent) so would extend their service life and allow the use of larger gas bottles.I wonder if you would make €10k per year out of each van to give a resonable rate of recovery...after ten years the things will be very tired even allowing a soft furishings refurb every three years and new matresses every year.[/quote]We looked at installing mobile homes rather than small wooden chalets a couple of years back. If you go down the mobile homes router we were told that the area technically becomes a campsite. This means firstly that the are must be a minimum in size land area, I forget what that is now, and you have to construct a campsite type shower, toilet and washing block. The barn, in the OP's case, could have part of it renovated to accommodate those facilities I suspect. In our case we didn't have enough land (7,500m2) and we argued the fact that the mobile homes had built in toilets and showers but they said no we had to construct a toilet block. Using chalets this is not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 60 hectares? Isn't that a farm? have you not to be registered as a farm?????? I really do not know, so I'm asking. Especially if you are going to be registering a business........ holiday rentals.......... on 'perhaps' agricultural land?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oatesdaniel Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="idun"]60 hectares? Isn't that a farm? have you not to be registered as a farm?????? I really do not know, so I'm asking. Especially if you are going to be registering a business........ holiday rentals.......... on 'perhaps' agricultural land??????[/quote] Well there is a business already running there so we will register as whatever the gentleman who is selling it is registered as Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Again an arguement for leasing mobile homes maybe? minimal outlay and non permanent installations.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 With my council hat on I will tell you that installing mobile homes or even a camp site where one does not exist currently will have to do through the permissions motions as there are many rules and regs to follow. Drainage has to comply and suffice the amount of people who would be using it, access has to comply with the emergency services and other utilities may be just too expensive to expand or install from scratch. There will also be the aesthetic outlook on the countryside and various protection bodies will be involved even down to groups wanting to protect the flora and fauna. You need to draw up a business plan on paper with plans of what you desire to do and present it to the council. Several requests here over the years to install even two mobile homes on a piece of land and one on the village campsite met with opposition and refusal at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oatesdaniel Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm not installing Mobile Homes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the idea, but the whole point in this particular fishery is that the gentleman who owns it charges a lot of money because everything is luxurious and I want to keep up that appearance but with Log Houses, or converting the barn. But thank you for the idea. Thank you too to you Val, I have dealt with a lot of planning issues in the UK so I'm sure it is not a dissimilar system from what you are talking about. The land I would be building on is already considered building land within the 60 hectares, but you are right, I do need to find out several things such as drainage issues, and installing different utilities. My idea would be that we would have electrics running to the property, water, and that is all, as currently the property uses propane gas bottles for heating and I would rather us solar panels and a woodburner from the cost effectiveness side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ahh the romance of it all - mobile homes aren't all bad. As you are well resourced an au fait with French planning and business I shall wish your venture well and pray that your budget is adequate and your instincts sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oatesdaniel Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Oh I agree Mac, mobile homes arent all that bad. But at the momejnt, fishermen are paying £2000 a week to stay in the house, so I cant turf them out of the house for my mother and father in law to live there and not provide them with suitable luxurious accommodation and unfortunately mobile homes are not going to provide that, which is a shame as they are more cost effective in the short term, but log houses are more cost effective long term as they can easily last over 100 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 BIG MAC wrote: As you are well resourced an au fait with French planning and businessI hadn't realised that the OP was really 'au fait' with much 'french', judging by all the questions asked. I did read that he was 'au fait' with UK planning and assumed it may be similar, which I have no idea about. I have learned to assume nothing at all will be same in both countries.. And french business, what about the URSSAF or other state officials, perhaps expecting all the adults to be registered as some sort of employees, if they are all working there, will they be? And maybe the OP's parents in law are not of an age to be working along with them........ I don't know. Well that maybe not quite the same as the UK.I mention the URSSAF, as when my son worked in a tourist restaurant, the bar next door was owned by a single man and he moved his parents in, about retirement age by the look of them........ and they were not registered as employees at the bar, inspite of their working at the bar. And one fine day a URSSAF inspection put pay to unpaid employees, along with a fine. Much unkown about this thread,and I'm wondering why, in this day and age, someone is selling such a money spinning business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Idun - In restaurants, it USED to be possible to "employ" immediate family to help out without declaring them up until I believe about 18 months ago, but a change of legislation ended that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 oatesdaniel ."......Well there is a business already running there so we will register as whatever the gentleman who is selling it is registered as"Don't assume it was registered properly or legally or even at all. It might have been - but then it might have been far from it too.Do your own research and find out what needs to be done rather than relying on what went on before - also bear in mind that there may well have been any number of legislation changes made since the business was originally set up which would prevent you doing the same today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oatesdaniel Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Thanks dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="oatesdaniel"]Oh I agree Mac, mobile homes arent all that bad. But at the momejnt, fishermen are paying £2000 a week to stay in the house, so I cant turf them out of the house for my mother and father in law to live there and not provide them with suitable luxurious accommodation and unfortunately mobile homes are not going to provide that, which is a shame as they are more cost effective in the short term, but log houses are more cost effective long term as they can easily last over 100 years.[/quote]Looking through some old brochures it seems the cost of these wooden chalets in Spain is between 80 and 100 Euros per metre squared (56mm thick logs) as opposed to around £120 in the UK. I might be worth having a touring holiday in Spain to do some research and look at examples. Seeing as all the wood in both countries come from the same place there shouldn't be a problem with quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="oatesdaniel"]... but log houses are more cost effective long term as they can easily last over 100 years.[/quote]And are usually looked upon more favourably by the planning authorities.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Before you buy if you are seriously thinking of building wooden log houses check that planning for these would be allowed. Someone bought building land near our village, this was not close to other buildings and they were not allowed to build a wooden house as it did not fit in with the local old stone houses.Maybe you'll just go for the barn conversion after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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