Plumbing fittings & dimensions - again!

[joidevie]

Sorry to be so ignorant again, but I'm getting somewhat fed up of running out & buying the wrong fittings.... yet again!

I'm running 20mm 'multicouche' (pex type) throughout the kitchen & bathroom (not via manifolds) with compression fittings, and am basically looking to 'T' off it into 14mm copper uprights to service sinks/dishwashers etc (maybe 12 or 10mm for the loo etc.). I've run the plastic pipes around the circuit with "20 - 15 - 20" (15 = 1/2 inch?) chrome 'T's' (the special fittings for the multicouche) ready to T off from. I have 14mm bicones & bagues. Am I wrong in thinking I can T off in 14mm from a fitting marked "15"?? The copper pipe sits somewhat loosely in the 20-15-20 T..

If I am wrong here, what on earth do I use to connect to services? 15mm does not exist obviously.. (I want to use compression fittings as I don't have (or want to) use soldering or PER..).

I'm getting quite confused with these fittings, and what is required to use with the 14mm bagues & bicones.. For example, I've now bought an "Applique 14 / 1/2" hoping to use compression fit to 14mm pipe ready for a washing machine 'tap' but the 'in' part has too short a thread to take when putting in a bague, so useless, and now I've bought 'coudres egales'  15x21 but when I slide the 14mm pipe in the 15 opening, it fits, but there is no concave/beveled taper for the olive to snug into (ie the opening has a flat face) and when trying to tighten up the 'ecrou', it won't take (nor does it feel right not to have a concave opening?).

My questions are (for now!):

- What pipe to use to T of from the so called '15' chrome multicouche T's?

- What's the definitive deal with so called '14' fittings and olives, and why they don't all seem to 'work' (the only ones that are fool proof are the individual 'packs' sold in brico shops - eg "raccord pour 14mm". These all seem to 'work' and are 'compatible' with 14mm copper pipe? 

[8-)]    [8-)]

I'm loosing the will to live here, and would appreciate any crystal clear succinct do's and don'ts !! Many thanks for any feedback..

[Anton Redman]

My understanding is that the compression fittings used for multicouche are unique to multicouche. Unlike PER where only the nuts and compression part are unique. Therefore If you want one leg of copper from pipe which starts in MC you need to purchase a special part for instance :

Basically you use a ‘T’ as below and a nut and olive the correct size for the copper you have purchased separately.

http://www.bricodepot.fr/bordeaux/node/472119

Where you want to switch from multicouche to copper also with nut and olive purchased separately

http://www.bricodepot.fr/bordeaux/node/479298

Bricodepot used for illustration only.

[joidevie]

Thanks Anton..

I actually have the T's in place (your first link) with 15/21 male coming off the 20mm multicouche..

Your second link looks to be an equal connector for 16mm multicouche (not copper) ie 16mm to 16mm multicouche.. ?

One of my main issues is whether I can T in 14mm copper into the 15/21 male outlet in your link number 1 even though the 14mm pipe seems a little loose in the 15/21 male fitting.. Am I right here?

And also, those other general "14mm to 15/21" issues I mentioned before..?

Many thanks again..

[Anton Redman]

Although the French call the fittings 12*17,15*21 and 20*27. They are actually UK 2/8, ½ and ¾ inch sizes.

On page 98 of current Brico Depot catalogue the show three types of straight fittings :

Raccords a Compression Droit Male which should enable you fit 16 mm to ½ inch. Or by fitting Mamelons Reduit Female Female reduce you from 12*21 to 12*17 so you can use compression on 12 mm pipe.

Raccord a Compresion Droit female into which you can screw nmale adaptors

Manchon Egal a Comresion which you used for joining length of multicoche.

The three types of T are egal for all multicoche and either male or female for the other fitting.

[Anton Redman]

Roughly where in France are you ?

[joidevie]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]Roughly where in France are you ?[/quote]

Herault.. Nearest BD is Carcassonne or Beziers..

Still trying to take in the info from your last post....

[joidevie]

What I have is the 20 - 1/2" T from here which is a 20mm multicouche with a 1/2" T off it - much like the Bricodepot version (20mm)..

If I wanted top T off in multicouche I would have bought this ? But I simply want to branch off in 14mm copper??

So, to fit a 14mm copper to 1/2" (15x21) do I need a mamelon reduit (as the 14mm feels 'loose' in a 15x21) or do I have to use 16mm? I understand that 12mm wilt need a reducer to 15x17?

Either way, some of these so called 'compression fittings' seem to either work with 'ecrous & bagues' or not depending on the moon cycles, especially the 'appliques'..

Have I got this horribly wrong ?

[Anton Redman]

Have a look at the tool shown

http://www.bricodepot.fr/bordeaux/node/472067

Using soft copper pipe. You first fit a nut the pipe. You then flare the end of the pipe using the tool shown. This produces a flange. You then put a washer between the copper and the fitting and tighten up to produce a water tight joint. Or you find a T piece with a shoulder to take the olive.

If you have hard straight copper pipe I think you have to heat and cool it before using the clamp on it.

[Anton Redman]

I started about 20 years a go on our maison secondaire. In three houses in France I have had more grief, pin hole leaks, fittings breaking etc than five UK homes.

[joidevie]

Great, thanks again..

I seem to have also been getting my 'olive joints' and 'mamelon joints' a little mixed up - seems I need to convert first.. Doh!

[powerdesal]

''If you have hard straight copper pipe I think you have to heat and cool it before using the clamp on it.''

Heat to cherry red and then quench in cold water.

[Anton Redman]

Much better descrioption than mine

[sid]

Why not use multicouche everywhere? Reduce to 16mm to feed the taps, terminating in a flexible feed for the taps themselves. The joints are quite expensive but the multicouche is so easy to use, especially for an amateur (like me).

[joidevie]

[quote user="sid"]Why not use multicouche everywhere? Reduce to 16mm to feed the taps, terminating in a flexible feed for the taps themselves. The joints are quite expensive but the multicouche is so easy to use, especially for an amateur (like me).[/quote]

It's tempting..

And the 'raccords' can be found much cheaper here - almost half the price in some instances. A 50m roll of 20mm was very cheap as well, and delivery VERY efficient with a choice of La Poste or Relais if that's easier..

[victor]

Sorry to raise this yet again but on the 26/08/2011 @18.07 Anton Redman provided some advice on tooling for connecting French copper pipe to French fittings. However, from the picture in the 2014 Brico Depot Catalogue it would appear that the tool quoted as Part No.210093 gives a bell mouth. Is there a tool that will give a flat flange?

Many thanks in advance.

Victor

[BIG MAC]

Can't help thinking it would be a hell of a lot easier to simply have the same size fittings across Europe rather than mess around. I am with Anton in that the quality of Kite-marked fittings is far better than the French / Chinese badged as French fittings available from Cabines Francaise..

[nomoss]

[quote user="victor"]Sorry to raise this yet again but on the 26/08/2011 @18.07 Anton Redman provided some advice on tooling for connecting French copper pipe to French fittings. However, from the picture in the 2014 Brico Depot Catalogue it would appear that the tool quoted as Part No.210093 gives a bell mouth. Is there a tool that will give a flat flange?

Many thanks in advance.

Victor[/quote]

The only time I ever saw a plumber create a flat flange on copper pipe was in Algeria, many years ago, where a presumably French-trained plumber gripped the end of the pipe with a pair of pliers, and neatly created a flange with a hammer, his only other tool. The joint he then made, using a washer, sealed perfectly.

So I think, in the absence of any other tool, that the flared end created by the tool shown could be converted to a flat flage by hammering it[:D]