Daft Doctor

Hi, just to clarify, the written receipt given to my uncle for the 750 euros cash he paid at the time to the Gendarmes did indeed include all details of the offence, including the speed recorded, the net speed after margin of error and the speed limit on the road in question. That 750 euros in cash had been collected was also clearly mentioned. The only thing missing was the written amount for the fixed fine (amende forfaitaire). I assume this was because there isn't a fixed fine for speeding in excess of 50 kph over the limit, merely a maximum fine. That brings me to the point made by BJSLIV. The figure of 1500 euros mentioned is not fixed, but as stated above, is a maximum fine for a 1st offence. The thing is, never on any of the paperwork is a fine of 1500 euros mentioned, merely 750, and no mention is made of the 750 euros handed over in March 2018. I guess my issue is whether I should advise my uncle to pay, or write to the tribunal de police in Tours and tell them again that he has paid 750 euros and ask them to confirm whether or not this is a case of duplication error, or indeed an additional fine........ My uncle and aunt (particularly) are worried that as they travel through France next week en route to Spain, they will be tracked and hassled for this money. I've told them however that as the official demand for payment has a date of 25th July on it, they aren't technically in default as yet, so shouldn't worry........

Hi, a little longwinded, but bear with....My uncle was caught speeding en route through France to Spain in March 2018, doing (I'm ashamed to say) 59 kph over the speed limit of 90. He was fined 750 euros on the spot, which he paid in cash and for which he received a receipt. He also had his license confiscated and was banned from driving in France for 3 months. He thought that was the end of the matter, but in May this year, he received an 'ordonnance penale' issued by the Tribunal de Police de Tours, dated April 2019, saying that he had been fined 750 euros plus 31 euros admin fee, and that 781 euros was payable within one month, with a 20% reduction if paid within that time. There was no mention on the paperwork of the 750 euros paid over to the Gendarmes on the spot. He had a letter drafted in French by someone in the UK and sent it recorded delivery to the Tribunal in Tours, explaining the situation, that he paid a fine of 750 euros on the spot, that his license had been confiscated, etc, and included the copy of the receipt for 750 euros received from the Gendarmes at the time. He heard nothing back, but this week received a further demand (Avis avant poursuites) for payment of the 781 euros referred to in the ordonnance penale. He has asked me to help sort this out, but in my opinion there seems to be only two possible explanations for the demands for payment received this year: 1. He has been fined an ADDITIONAL 750 euros plus admin costs. The maximum fine for first offence speeding more than 50 kph over the limit is 1500 euros. On his receipt from the Gendarmes, the amount of the fine isn't specified, only that he's paid the 750. If it is an additional fine, this would explain the 13 months delay between the offence and receiving the new demand, and the fact that they seem to have ignored his letter and evidence sent to them in May. If this is a case of an additional fine however, would they not have mentioned somewhere on the paperwork that the total fine was 1500 euros, that 750 euros had been paid in cash, and that the 750 + 31 was the outstanding amount?? Seems odd that there would be no mention of the total fine, and 1500 is the maximum, not the minimum.... 2. It's a typical example of French administrative inefficiency, that they haven't taken into account that he has paid a 750 sum in cash already. The fine is therefore down as unpaid, even though it was. The thing against this theory is that a fine requested by the Gendarmes must be paid on the spot at the time of the offence. If you don't have cash, they normally escort you to a cash machine or confiscate the car until it is paid. Long winded, sorry, but anyone out there who can answer the question of whether scenario 1. or 2. is the likely answer, either from knowledge or experience... Thanks in advance

Hereford and I and others above are 100% correct, David is either mistaken or has been ill-informed. I've relied on (consistent) professional advice both of my former UK accountant and our accountant here in France, along with clear direction initially from HMRC. I'll say it once more, irrespective of your country of tax residence, UK property income is taxed in the UK, though is declarable in France. There may be some confusion around the term Non-resident Landlord, which simply means that unless you apply for exemption (which I did - without difficulty - it's a formality as long as your UK tax affairs are clean and all payments have been on time), in theory your tenants would be obliged to deduct tax from their rental payments before handing them over to you, then they would have to forward the tax payments to HMRC on your behalf. This has nothing to do with where you pay the tax, simply how it is collected......

Haven't looked at all your boxes, etc in detail, but as I said in my previous post, it is irrelevant whether or not you have paid UK tax on the rental income or ever will do so. Under the dual tax treaty it is only relevant that it the rental income is taxable in the UK to get a proportional rebate on your French tax. You should therefore complete the forms on the same basis, irrespective of whether UK tax has been paid. Also, I have been doing these returns for Mrs DD & I for 8 years now, helped initially by a French accountant. In my opinion, you should keep it as simple as possible and just enter net figures everywhere rather than separating income and expenses. You will have the necessary information and documentation to supply if requested, but you won't be........

Agree with all that's been said, but regarding form 2044, our French accountant used to simply put down the net rental profit rather than all the detail of rental income and allowable expenses. The figures used did relate specifically to the French tax (i.e. calendar) year, and it is irrelevant whether or not UK tax has already been paid (or ever will be) on the income. Even though we have a number of UK rental properties, only one composite rental profit figure was used on the 2044, split as appropriate between Mrs DD and I (the figures are different for each of us because of ownership arrangements) on 2047K. Furthermore, our accountant simply listed 'Royaume-uni' as the property address, no more detail. At the end of the day, the French tax authorities simply need to know a UK rental profit figure to use as a basis for your French tax banding and subsequent rebate, which is calculated proportionally, in the ratio that the UK property income relates to all declarable income. As regards the Année Blanche, at the end of form 2044 it clearly says that income from properties situated overseas, where there it a right to an French income tax credit, are excluded. UK property income of course falls into this category, so the Année Blanche boxes should be left blank.....

When we went for our CdS interview in November, it so happened that we already has our birth and marriage certificates translated from 2013 (I think). They were happily accepted of course, but at the time I did ask the very pleasant fonctionnaire if it was indeed necessary for the documents to be translated. She told me that it depended who was sitting in front of you and whether they understood enough written English to correctly transcribe the terms used on the certificates to your electronic record. To me that means it is not compulsory, merely a convenience for certain members of staff. I think that if there is an authoritative online source which states that translations cannot be insisted upon, it would be wise to take a copy along to the rdv if your documents are presented in their original, untranslated form.......

No, your son is right. If the old scheme and the new PAYE scheme were both operating in 2019, then as well as the monthly deductions from 2019 income taken since January under PAYE, tax would also need to be paid in February, May & September based on 2018 income. Clearly, this would have caused more than just the gilets jaunes protests, therefore to avoid paying tax on both 2018 & 2019 'regular' income in the same year, tax will not (ever) be paid on the 2018 income. As far as the French goverment is concerned, they will still receive a years tax from everyone in 2019, only the income on which it is calculated is that also earned in 2019, rather than being calculated in arrears on 2018 income.

Hi chessie, a bit mixed up maybe, but yours is a common misconception. Not all public sector pensions are 'Government Pensions' for the purpose of the dual tax treaty. The main 'Government Pensions' are Civil Service, Teachers, Police, & Fire Service. Probably to do with how these services are funded via Local Authorities or (in the case of the civil service) because you are in the direct service of the government. The NHS is funded differently, via NHS England, through local health trusts rather than through local authorities. I therefore assume that NHS staff are not deemed to be employed directly by government, unlike those categories mentioned above. I confirmed the tax status of my NHS pension with HMRC at the outset when I drew it. It is indeed correct that it is wholly taxed in France, and I have an NT tax code on it in the UK.

Thinking more about it, our income consists solely of 'regular income' (NHS pension), and income taxed under the DTT (UK property income). The logic of what is intended by the treatment of 2018 income would suggest that our additional tax bill over the prélèvements should be nil, since a rebate should be applied for both those categories of our assessed income. I bet that doesn't happen.........

Thanks Pomme, that would seem entirely logical, though it'll be interesting to see how they apply the barème to the calculation for this year. If they calculate the notional tax due on all the income, how will they calculate the rebate due for 2018 regular income. Will it be as with the rebate under the DTT, i.e. a proportion of the entire bill based on the ratio of UK taxed to total assessed income, or will they give the rebate as a slice off at the highest rate(s). Neither way is accurate really, but one is financially better than the other for the taxpayer......

I've just had another look at last year's avis d'impots and to calculate the amount of the monthly prélèvements for 2019, they seem to have applied a 14.4% composite tax rate, but only to my NHS pension income (which is wholly taxed in France). Our UK property income has been excluded from the calculation. Could it be that the impots are starting to ignore any income which is taxed elsewhere and dealt with under a dual tax treaty, or is it simply that so called 'un-earned income' such as that from property or investements falls outside the PAYE scheme and will be billed separately in September. As you say Sue56, let's hope someone fully in the know such as parsnips will pick up the thread.....

I usually consider myself to be on the ball with these things, but I must say on the issue of tax this year I'm a bit foggy. Maybe someone in the know can enlighten me? In the case of Mrs DD and I, as many others, we have been paying monthly prélèvements since January. The thing is, the taux indicated on last year's Avis d'Impôt equated to just over half our annual tax bill for 2018 (based on 2017 income) after deduction of the rebate under dual tax agreements for our regular UK property income. Last years tax wasn't different significantly from previous years and there were no exceptional elements. I've worked out that after taking into account our prélèvements over the full year (January to December), we will have paid approx 3,000 euros less than our tax bill for 2019 on 2018 income would have worked out. At the moment, I've budgeted for having to pay this shortfall in September of this year, as has been the case with any corrective payments in the past. From what I've been reading though, I'm unclear as to whether or not this will happen. If, as seems the case, these prélèvements ultimately will relate to 2019 tax based on 2019 income, will the extra tax based on 2018 income simply be written off? Can't quite seem to find an answer in simple terms......

At our recent rdv to submit our documents, we asked if translations of the various birth and marriage certificates were obligatory (even though we'd taken ours - had them done ages ago...). We were told that it depends on whether the person dealing with you has enough English to be able to understand the original versions to transfer the necessary data to their systems. I must say the rdv was as straight forward as I could have imagined. No unexpected documents demanded, we were asked for the following: 1. Identity: Passport + Copy 2. Civil Status: Birth & Marriage Certificates - Copy in both English & French 3. Proof of address: - usual recent bill for each of us 4. Proof of Heath Cover: Original S1 from 2012, then attestations de droits d'assurance maladie collected since then. Printed one off the day before the rdv, accepted as continuous cover. 5. Proof of Means: NHS pension statements (not translated) + Avis d'Impots 2012-18 - I was asked to point out my pension income on the avis, which was then highlighted 6. Proof of Continuous Residence: One document from each 6 month period, various, including utility or phone bills, rental contract, quittences de loyer from when we rented, the odd bank statement where there was a gap to fill....... 7. Mrs DD is a autoentrepreneur, so didn't need to prove income, merely that she has had her business continually for at least 5 years. She took registration documents, attestations fiscales, turnover declarations, business tax demands and receipts kbis, etc. She didn't have to prove continuous health cover either, as it is intrinsic to being an autoentrepreneur.... I took the step of scanning and saving most documents digitally at home before the rdv, so with the exception of passports and certificates, was happy to hand over originals for the authorities to keep. As I said at the time, 'it's more paper for you and less for me', which the nice lady found quite amusing (she had a sense of humour thank God). Finger prints were scanned, temporary cards issued, and we were on our way in under an hour. Not sure what it is like in other departements, but those who had turned up on spec to be seen without rdv were in for a very long wait, the waiting room was standing room only......

Having had a good read of Article 18 of the document, my interpretation of paragraph (h) is that those who already have a Carte de Sejour permanent before Brexit will only have to prove identity, pass a security and criminality check, and prove ongoing residence to exchange their current card for a new replacement one. It will only be those who are applying for permanent residency for the first time who will have to produce the documentation mentioned in paragraph (k). Anyone see it differently?

Hi, my son is in his last year at lycée, and will finish his BAC next summer. He has a December birthday however, so will be 17 and a half when he finishes. As he doesn't yet know which career path he wants to take, and whether or not he wants to go to Uni in France or in the UK, he plans to work for a year locally, then decide as the teenage mist starts to lift...... The problem is that we have found that even for temporary supermarket jobs at evenings and weekends, they all stipulate a minimum age of 18, and although I'm not sure that it's true, some say the law doesn't permit young people to work below that age?? I just wondered if there is anyone out there who knows if the age limit of 18 for employment is a popular myth and simply self imposed by companies and businesses, or whether it is indeed a legal restriction? Secondly, if he can't work for at least 6 months after finishing lycée on account of his young age, is there any entitlement to some form of unemployment or other benefit for him. It seems ridiculous that he can legally finish school with his BAC, yet can neither legally work nor claim any financial support from anywhere. Any insight or advice would be much appreciated.....

Thanks for all the help. I've just made back to back appointments for Mrs DD and I in early November, so lots of time to pull the necessary (and unnecessary!) bits and pieces together. The Haute Savoie website is fairly vague about required documentation, but they do say they do not have the facility to copy and that originals and copies of everything are needed. I don't get any paper bills or statements these days except the annual water bill, so they can keep the 'originals' of anything they like.........

Hi Norman, I have a full specrum of electricity bills, but as I said earlier, since we moved into our new house in 2014, they have only been issued once a year, in december, which coincides with our water bills...........

Hi, I have 6 years' worth of Avis d'Impôts, tax d'habitation bills (with associated degrèvements), all in both our names of course, so have lots to fall back on. It's just like putting a timeline together that fits the brief. The say a document for each 6 months, which is fine, but does that mean they need to be dated 6 months apart, or just fall into the first or second semerster of each year?

Hi Andyh4, we have been on utlity bills throughout and have been continuously resident for 6 and a half years. The problem is that my name was mainly on the bills, as it is unusual for French electricity and internet companies to offer anything else but sole name accounts. In any case, our electricity and water bills are only issued once a year, and we don't use gas, so internet and mobiles are the only other utilities we use, and the only ones issuing monthly bills. There happens to be a gap in those bills because we changed provider and forgot to download the previous few invoices before they stopped giving us access. Even so, Mrs DD's mobile was on a general Orange internet and phone account in my name for a while. We put Mrs.DD's name on the internet account when we changed provider again, just to spread things a bit, but I have the problem that although my mobile account is in my name and I believe can be acceptable as proof of address these days, I have a gap or two from around 2 years ago when I only had the water and electricity in my name, with both of those bills coming in december only. It would therefore be a good thing if they will accept joint bank statements to fill those gaps.....sorry, long winded reply!.....

Sorry if I am going over old ground, but I'm pulling a dossier together for Mrs DD and I to get our CdS Perm and I had a couple of questions based on people's previous experiences: 1. Proving current domicile is easy, but we have to go back 5 years and prove continuous legal residence. There are gaps in the 5 years when either Mrs DD or I hasn't a utility bill in our own name. I wondered therefore if joint bank account statements are usually deemed acceptable for the purpose? 2. We also have a full history of RSI health reimbursement statements in Mrs DD's name, are those generally accepted as part of proof of continouous residence? 3. Is it best to apply as individuals, or for one to apply as a family member of the other, or does it make little difference? The last thing I want to do is to go and be told to come back because a dossier isn't complete, but at the same time don't want to burn my printer out making copies of uneccessary documents. Any insight on what is and what isn't necessary will be much appreciated (and of course taken at face value)

I simply calculate the taxable UK property profit (i.e. rental income minus allowable expenses) before deduction of personal allowances, then convert to euros and enter on form 2047 & 2044. I use cash book software for recording, so crunching the numbers for any calendar year is not difficult for me. I use the Banque de France exchange rate on 31st December for the £/euro rate to apply to the profit figure, though others may use a different method. Thing is I am consistent in how I do the calculations and can demonstrate how I came to the figures if ever asked to do so......

Yes, as has been said many times before on this forum, UK property income, be it furnished or otherwise, is taxed in the UK. It is also declared in France however to form a basis (along with any other income taxable in France) for the calculation of any French income tax payable for your 'foyer'. A rebate is then applied to your French tax bill to reflect the proportion of your total income which arises from UK property and has therefore been taxed elsewhere. The French declarations in this respect are made on forms 2047, 2042 and supplementary detail provided via form 2044. In my case, in France I declare the taxable UK property profit for the calendar year in question, as of course the UK and French tax years are not compatible. Be careful to ensure that any social charges calculated by 'les impôts' on UK property income are fully refunded on your Avis d'Impôt, as both I and others I know have had to point out retrospectively to the tax authorities that social charges are considered a tax under the terms of the dual tax treaty between the UK and France and that a full rebate is due....

A couple of observations. Firstly, as per the OP's first entry in the thread, there is sometimes confusion over whether a net or gross figure should be entered on form 2047 in respect of income wholly taxable in the UK (UK property income or 'government' pensions mainly). For the purposes of relief from French tax under the dual tax treaty, the relevant point is only that such income is taxable in the UK, not that it has in fact been taxed or will lead to a future tax payment (UK tax allowances and other reliefs might mean no tax is paid). For that reason, it is the gross in euros which should always be entered, exactly in the manner described very clearly above. What I would also say is that for the purposes of the dual tax treaty, this type of income is exempt from social charges, so any such charges added on the avis d'impot should be then clearly reversed. Please check this, as both I and some others I know with UK property income have had to point out the error the the French tax authorities when social charges have been levied but then not deducted. Secondly, as I have a non-government UK pension which is wholly taxable in France, and as I am an early retiree, I pay CSG/CRDS/CASA on it at the going rate. In years past, a proportion of the CSG paid in any year has then been automatically added to my return as a deduction in box 6DE on the following years 2042, leading to an associated reduction in French income tax payable. This year however, it is a bit more complicated. On my 2017 Avis d'impot, the 'CSG deductible' in 2018 was split, one part on french savings interest (treated as per above on 2042), the rest however is labelled 'Montant de CSG déductible des revenus de source étrangère au titre des revenus perçus en 2017' It took me quite a while to find out what to do about this amount of CSG relief, as there is no specific box on either 2047 or 2042 to enter it. Eventually I found Form 2041-GG 2018 (available on impots.gouv.fr or via google) to work out what to do. My interpretation of 2041-GG is that the CSG deductible from foreign income should be subtracted from (in my case) my gross pension income and the result entered in 1.11 of 2047 and 1AM of 2042. The CSG relief deducted should then be added back in, before entering the total amount in 8TV of 2042, since the relief from last years CSG is only available against income tax and not on social charges. I would advise anyone who has foreign income on which they pay CSG to check last year's Avis d'impot, and if as in my case the CSG deductible has been split, look up 2041-GG and act accordingly so not to lose the relief.

Hi Wooly, yes, we used to have brisket at home from time to time when I was a kid. It is rolled into a joint and tied. It is quite fatty to start with, and would be tough if roasted like a normal joint, but if slow pot-roasted, it is both tender and tasty. Most of the fat cooks away during the process, but it helps the meat stay moist. To be honest, we are sick of trying to buy decent beef for roasting here in France, as most of the (usually very expensive) cuts we have tried are only fit to sole you shoes with. For that reason, brisket would be a good alternative, if we can get a hold of it......

I guess it does no harm to include the pension pot if it removes any doubt. The situation doesn't affect me as I cashed my pot in last year and will pay the 7.5% special tax on the proceeds, but Mrs DD has a pot in the UK still. I will have a look at the regulations again and go from there. Just out of interest, I doubt very much that the French authorities would find out about such a pension pot if you didn't declare it on 3916. All of my UK deposit and current account holders have asked about my tax residency situation and for my French TIN, whereas this was not the case with the former holder of my pension pot, nor that of Mrs DD. The UK banks have told me clearly that they have a responsibility to report my accounts to all countries where I am a tax resident, but without our TINs the pension providers aren't able to do this.