Jess

Hi All Do you have to be a french citizen to be on someone's list? Jess

Fantastic - another cat lover here. I cried laffing and some of it- my wacky cat has attempted some of these stunts and is the source of much love and amusement! Thanks[:D]

Underlined = Danny. Bold = me Danny's quote: "On the whole,( I mean as a society or country) people get what they deserve - either through their choice or inaction or their capacity to be distracted. So, I suppose if the UK becomes a Muslim state - I don't know why that should be a negative thing any more than a Christian State would be - then it will be what the people want or should have." I suppose it depends on whether you are a woman or in another minority that the islamists despise and would want stoned/beheading and the like.As I fit into at least one of those categories I have to disagree that I for one would STRONGLY fear a muslim state over a christian one - just think democracy and liberty vs barbarism and fear based on ideas from the dark ages? Not much of a choice in my book Danny boy! Why do you think I say and believe what I do. Do we learn nothing from history? Do you think in hindsight a jew would not have the right to be just a tiny little bit worried if they were saying similar things to what I am saying against extremist islamists, if they were saying them against fascism in the early 1930's? It seems that you already think that Sharia Law is on its way and must be fought. (Danny) Absolutely righy Danny (see above for why) Personally I think this agenda is being forced to create a conflict and we should not dramatize it and feed these fears (Danny) I don't want to feed any fear but making people wake up out of their middle class lethargy and realise what is happening in the UK before it's too late. If that scares people then it should!!!!!   Of course, it is full of barbarism and inequality. Ataboy - you're getting the idea! But it does not have to came to the UK or elsewhere. It will if we don't fight it - that's the point of speaking out and defending what we have And in the end it will not be Mr or ms lighter middleclass non-muslim average jo or joe who suffers. It will be the browner, muslim, mostly less well off who will  bear the brunt of the current climate. Especially all those who are women. Exactly - so do they not need defending? - oh but are you trying to say that in our society these people are expendable? I hope not. After them who do you think will be next? It takes effort to maintain things or fight for change. Read the islamist and then see how they (extremist islamists) are "fighting for change" in radicalising youth and incase you have forgotten killing innocent people - we must fight this I personally see the enemy elsewhere and they are not Muslim. I agree with you partly, GW has alot to answer for - but he's not alone The main problem for me is that most folk don't really give two hoots as long there is endless distraction in their lives.  I'm not one of them - if I lived in an islamic state I'd already be dead - now that's something that qualifies and clears the mind, and makes you want to tell people how it really is and what they want to try and impose here - we need to resist. I lost a dear friend in an islamic state as a result of sharia law. Hope this isn't too confusing with underline/bold but I hope you get my drift Jess

PS I forgot to mention - what if you are gay - "god" help you then if sharia comes into play!

Here here RH! Someone is making sense[I] Will, what you are describing is all great but what we actually have in practice is far from the happy cosy little family image you give of religions happily co-existing side by side (although I would wish that were the case). The moderate muslim who just wants a personal faith is not the issue here. It's those that have subjugated islam and are trying to transform it into something very less benign from what you have described that we need to be considering here. Please if you have not read "The Islamist" by Ed Hussain then I would advise you to do so, for the picture portrayed by him - someone who has escaped from the radicalism of this form of islam - is not pretty and we should be taking what he and others like him say seriously, apart from the obvious issue of equal rights for women. As for multi-cultualism I believe that we all in the UK can live together respecting each others differences BUT taking the laws and practices in the UK as the basis for living in the country - and if an element of a "new" culture contravenes the UK laws then this should not be acceptable. e.g. the discriminatory treatment of women. We all need to have guidance/rules by which we should live by - otherwise anarchy rules. If some follow one code and others another with contrasting laws then it can not work.  

Hi A couple of points. Firstly to Hoddy. Like yourself I am proud to say I am a feminist and the famous quote from Rebecca West pretty much says it all, although feminism seems to have been adopted by some as an insult these days, leaving women feeling uncomfortable about admitting that you are a feminist for fear of being called names such as "bunny hugger" etc.. in an attempt to ridicule what your opinions are. The quote is :-  "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." Sharia law in whatever form places women in the "doormat" position with little say over anything. Danny mate, Sharia law is basically completely open to interpretation from whichever (male - of course!) scholar you seek advice/ruling from, and advice is wildly different within the sharia law depending on whether this said scholar is based in the "west" or in a state which is lead by islamic laws. You guessed it, the decisions are much harsher in the islamic state as their scholars do not understand the context in which those requesting advice live. Therefore this makes all sharia a complete farse, and a very very dangerous one. Danny you are looking at this with your western eyes and thinking rationally that of course if "the people - ie the muslim community" want it then they should have it. Well just to ask you - do you think women will have a say as to whether this decision (which will particularly apply to them) will involve them? No of course they won't - you are being way too idealistic in thinking this would happen - wake up and smell mega loads of coffee - as RH says, women won't be given a say and if they rely on UK law (which is what is used to counter this point) they will be not allowed to use it for fear of being cast out of their community/family - THERE WILL BE NO CHOICE IF YOU ARE A WOMAN - Sharia law will always discriminate against you even in the most simple cases. So like Hoddy, I am 150,000,000,000% against 1 single syllable of sharia law being applied because by DEFINITION it is completely unequal, unfair and so loosely based on very wide interpretation it has no place in a civilised world. Look into it Danny, as your view just shows- as many people do -how naive we in the west view the sharia - thinking that afterall, it is based on solid religious concepts which of course can't be bad can they? YES THEY B****Y WELL CAN! As in all - it is based on current interpretation which without going over it again is unequal and discriminatory. As I have said before it is this I am against not the personal choice of having a faith - but as with female circumcision which is part of some religions, in the UK we as civilised people would not let (or should not let) such practises happen because they are against human rights. The whole concept/basis of sharia is AGAINST human rights so ALL of it should be unacceptable. Human rights should come become before religious rights if there is a conflict between the two.

Spot on gluey!!! But less of the working class[;-)] - wouldn't like to offend any daily mail readers now would we? I really must go - am being harranged about getting to the pub..... what's your poisons gluestick and Will? the 1st rounds on me![:-))] Chin chin

Will, let me tell you a secret - I wouldn't even wrap my chips in the Daily Mail it's so right wing - does that let you know something of my politics perhaps? Another hint - I read the guardian....does that give you another tiny clue? The implication was clear - as Daily Mail headlines often are without actually verbalising it in so many words - to what do you equate the BNP and the national front? You don't have to be on university challenge (even for a Daily Mail reader) to know that the two are often equated to "racism" so nice try Will - but it didn't work. Also if you do bother to go back and read my posts you will see that I too am against the fundamentalist islamists and certainly not against the poor peace loving muslims who have to deal with all the unwanted flak thanks to there "zealot brothers". So we are actually in agreeance but looking  at it from different angles Will. Also if you want to believe that Pinky and Perky are Jesus Christ incarnate - why the hell not? See a quote from myself below to show that anyone can "be allowed to have their own faith" as you have put it. "Now that doesn't mean that I am against anyone having a personal faith - that is a private matter between each person and whatever thing they worship/god/whatever." Does that answer your plee? Good. I'm off to the pub Cheers

[quote user="Will"]How much is George W Bush/Nick Griffin/Jean-Marie le Pen (delete as applicable) paying you, Jess? [:D][/quote] Now Will, let me sit you down and explain in very easy to understand English why none of the above or their politics are anywhere near what I think and just how people like you who attritute ANY speaking out against an extremist faith as "racism" are a massive part of the problem. The fear of "better not say anything otherwise you'll be labelled a racist" sums up your comment to a tee dear Will [blink]. Listen coz I'll only say this once - Just because I disagree with  how islam has been interpreted by some extremists  does NOT make me racist or linked with any of the clowns mentioned above. If you actually read what I have said and think about it just a little bit [I] it will be obvious. There you go Will - some home work for you.  

"Mr Brown believed religious law should be subservient to UK law, he added. " The above is from an article on the BBC regarding Williams trying to dig himself out of the mess he got himself into. Well there's an unresounding level of support from dear old Gordon to the idea of no sharia law in the UK. It seems to suggest, conversely, that there will be sharia law but at a "subservient" level. Thank goodness I have moved to France permanently - long live laicity. But that other joker Sarko and his side kick MAM are thinking about tinkering with the laicity laws in France. God (if there is one[;-)]) help us!!

In some respects we agree gluestick - it is those that think of rights for all at any cost without having the understanding or the "nouse" to realise that some will use those rights to abuse and deform the laws and freedoms of the society in which they live. I however have never been so naive as to fall for the islamists banter and the knee jerk reaction of those falling over themselves to be seen as PC (Tony Blair - but he then realised the error of his ways towards the end of his tenure) and not racist in any way, succombed to pressure and slick talking by these extremists. They must sit and laugh about the ease with which they have achieved such power, and having the people they dispise (left thinkers or as you put it "bunny huggers") actually helping them along the way - think Cherie Blair defending the young girl re wearing the veil in school. Such politicisation of a religion has sinister aims behind it, and all those people who truely believe in freedom (feminists included) should do a bit of eye openning and soul searching on this one. It's not the same as offering a helping hand to a disadvantaged group - this group will take the help and then happily bite off the hand that helped them and seek to destroy the democratic freedoms that they were helped to obtain. Again I must reinforce that my thoughts are anti - fundamentalist radical islamists who seek to transform our democracy into atheocracy. There is no hard feeling towards moderate muslims - indeed, I feel particularly sorry for them as they seem to struggle to find a voice against these zealots for fear of being labelled "kafir". Force, coercion, fear and indoctrinasation rule with these extremists, not the main tennants of the faith which encourages love and respect between all people.  

[quote user="Will"] Still. I don't think the Archbishop is going to make things any better as long as the present controversy lasts - or not unless his comments are turned completely into an anti-Islam rant, which would probably strike a chord of sympathy with a large chunk of the population, but is diametrically opposed to what the man stands for.  [/quote] If I am considered to be "ranting" I would just like to emphasise that it is an anti-islamIST rant as opposed to anti-islam/racist rant. There is a whole world and a half's difference. I am glad you feel happy to say you are a practising anglican, I myself am anti-religion - yes all of them - as I consider them to be at best, a method of controlling the weak minded and at worse a source of trouble/war/conflict and social division. Now that doesn't mean that I am against anyone having a personal faith - that is a private matter between each person and whatever thing they worship/god/whatever. However, when it starts to be politicised as the islamists are doing with the islamic faith, when you know their aim is to take over and rule by islamic law, I don't think such an eventuality should be allowed. Slowly but surely, our "PC" world is being taken for a very dangerous ride by those wanting to use democracy to destroy it. The sooner we are all aware of this the better. Think Berlin before 1933. I know it may seem unthinkable but we must recognise what is happening and continue to back the rights that have been hard fought for, in terms of freedom/equality/to be at liberty to worship who/whatever you want to. This is not the case in regimes that currently hold to Islamic law. As a woman (a feminist en plus!) I think such a thing would be heading back to the dark ages. 

[quote user="Hoddy"]Dr Williams may be right about the adoption of Sharia law being inevitable. It is already operating in many parts of the UK today. The problem with his high intellectual arguments is that they seem to be oblivious of how such things work out in practice. As a long-time feminist I find it quite outrageous that we might hand over the hard worn rights of British women over their marital status, property and children to a patriarchal group of men who think that they are sanctioned by god rather than democracy. The idea that these women would be able to choose whether or not to have their problems resolved by a sharia court is so naive as to be laughable. A woman who chose a British court would be cast out from the community with all the penalties that this implies. Hoddy[/quote] Hoddy I agree with you completely. Demios I think perhaps if you have a look at sharia law (the bbc do a Q&A page on it) and look in greater detail I  think you may consider that sharia law has no place whatsoever in any democratic country, neither the more "moderate" parts that the archbishop was most likely referring to (marriage and mortgage issues) or the more extreme rulings that make the news re flogging rape victims and beheading gays etc... However even the so called moderate parts of the law are in no way equal to half of the population (namely women) so is this something we should be encouraging? I don't think it is. When one looks beyond whether his words were misinterpreted or not (there may be something to that) and look at the issue of sharia, I think it's scarey that the insidious creep of the extremist islamists and their agenda - in using the democratic process to try and take power, and then if that were to happen (as outlandish a possibility that might be) do you think that they would allow the democratic process that we currently have (warts and all) to continue..err.I don't think so for one minute. We should resist this strongly. It is not a question of racism, moderate muslims are often pushed to the side and who speaks for them? The extremists seem to have taken control of many previously considered moderate muslim groups/associations (e.g the muslim council of britain). It is all form of extremism we should resist whatever direction that comes from. Muslim should never be synonomous with the term terroist, as christian should not be synonomous with the extremists in the USA (in particular) and their wacky views who give the christian faith a bad name. We need to open our eyes and see what's happening. Read the excellent book "The islamist" if you want to learn how these extremists seek to radicalise young muslims in the UK and use the democratic system for there own non-democratic aims. Now THAT IS VERY SCAREY[:@][:(]  

Yes RH Doh! as what's his name would say, or alternatively, if I had a brain I'd be dangerous! Widgets, technology and politics = don't agree with me or vice-versa [:$] Tar for pointing out the obvious![:$][:$] bon soir J

Sorry - another dumb question, how come I haven't got a PM widget thing next to the email widget thing below my post? Yours stupidly J

Thanks Russethouse - glad to be here![:)]

PS What are all the blue yellow circles about under my name? Sorry first time in this forum so not sure what they mean? Tar J

LOL sweet! Utter fool maybe not but ill advised and so out of touch with the UK public that he should go and do his thing at a uni and leave religion to those who realise the impact of what they say and know how NOT to play into the hands of the far right who must be rubbing their hands over this. He is probably a very nice man (I don't know him at all[;-)]!) but one that needs to wake up and realise that human rights should come way way before religious rights. There - my rant is over - glad I got that off my chest! chin chin J!  

We bought our current house after over a year of house hunting. Our priority was an old stone house (like lots of Brits), with outbuildings, on a quite road. The only thing out of the 3 that we found was tranquility! We are in an old brick house (1 wall is stone however[:)]), without outbuildings and settled for this coz otherwise we thought we wouldn't find anything. We kept being outbid by Parisians rather than other Brits funnily enough (we are on the Ide F and normandy border). So good luck to you - be prepared for several visits and don't be pushed into signing on something too quickly. Take your time and if necessary get a builder to check stuff out for you. We were saved from a big mistake when we fell inlove with a great stone hse but needed at least £50000 spending on the roof - taking it way over our budget - thanks to a good builder/roofer who gave us a reliable estimate. Agencies will want to push you to sign, remember it's a buyers market - it's unlikely to get sold under your nose. Think carefully and do your maths precisely. bon chance J

Of course freedom of speech and all that make it interesting to hear what he thinks on certain subjects. But don't you think that considering his position he was very naive indeed to discuus such a possibility when you know how unequal the sharia law actually is? It shocks me, and makes me want to ban all religion in relation to the state, including getting rid of bishops in the house of lords. They shouldn't be there. Religion is good for two things - causing division/conflict and controlling the weak minded. Laicity is where we should be - there should be NO laws based on religion - jewish/islamic/christian/hindu/or any bunch of fanatics that call themselves a religion. People should be judged under 1 law, not 1 that applies to 1 coz he's jewsish and to another coz he's muslim. 1 law;1 judgement - it should not be choose what you fancy depending on your faith - what utter rubbish [:@]

Does anyone else think that he's lost it completely? Scholarly he might be but perhaps the ivory towers suit him better than being chief of  the CoE. Does anyone else think that the UK could learn alot from France's laicity laws, and that religion should play no part in the state or legislative system? I would value people's opinions. Many thanks J