Boiling a frog

That may be the case but it is as well to be aware of the law in case the OP thought that tape recording the conversation would be a good idea , Taking notes of a conversation is of no use legally unless it is verbatim and contemporaneous

[quote user="ams"] It sounds to me that you are getting a lifestyle visit to compare your lifestyle with that of your declared income. On the other hand it would  appear to indicate that those that have been resident for 5 years plus, will be able to stay within the CMU. looking from another side perhaps those in the CMU at the 30th sept and not resident for 5 years will be excluded.   All speculation, I would suggest that you record any conversations and ensure that you have an independent person with you during the visit. From experience of revenue audits, I would suggest that you say very little and listen to all questions very carefully and respond with, " I need to think about the question and will revert to you in due course in writing". or would you please pose the questions in writing, so that i can give due consideration to the question and frame a comprehensive response.   ams [/quote]   Just be very carefull that you have the CPAM persons consent to record the conversation It is a criminal offence under the penal code CHAPTER VI. - OFFENCES AGAINST PERSONALITY SECTION 1. - OFFENCES AGAINST PRIVACY ARTICLE 226-1 Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002 A penalty of one year’s imprisonment and a fine of € 45,000 is incurred for any wilful violation of the intimacy of the private life of other persons by resorting to any means of: 1° intercepting, recording or transmitting words uttered in confidential or private circumstances, without the consent of their speaker; 2° taking, recording or transmitting the picture of a person who is within a private place, without the consent of the person concerned. Where the offences referred to by the present article were performed in the sight and with the knowledge of the persons concerned without their objection, although they were in a position to do so, their consent is presumed. ARTICLE 226-2 The same penalties apply to the keeping, bringing or causing to be brought to the knowledge of the public or of a third party, or the use in whatever manner, of any recording or document obtained through any of the actions set out under article 226-1. Where the misdemeanour under the previous paragraph is committed through the press or by broadcasting, the specific legal provisions governing those matters are applicable to define the persons who are responsible.

You sent a registered letter to the wrong department,they have signed for its receipt but it was not for them. Therefore they have to return the letter to you so that you can send it to the correct department . Otherwise you would not get an acknowledgement that the correct department had received it by receiving back the avis de reception. You have now moved onto making an official complaint so everything must comply with the law. Welcome to the world of French Bureaucracy [:D]

A small update on the Jim Murphy blog   Healthcare in France Thank you to everyone who has raised the issue of changes to the applicability of the French healthcare system to British citizens living in France, both here and through the British Embassy and Consulates in France. I take this issue very seriously and I'm working with the Department of Health to press the French government on this, through our Embassy in Paris and at other opportunities. Unfortunately I can't respond in detail to all the individual circumstances you have described in your posts but I will keep you updated on further developments here. posted on 09 November 2007 09:55 by Jim Murphy

The big question.Is CMU legislation incompatable with EU law? It says that CMU is available for anyone residing legally in France for more than 3 months and who does not have access to another form of Medical assurance is entitled to CMU I do not see how that breaches EU law. Article 24 Equal treatment 1. Subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary law( ie if inactive have sufficient funds and comprehensive medical assurance until they have 5 years residency), all Union citizens residing on the basis of this Directive in the territory of the host Member State shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State within the scope of the Treaty. The benefit of this right shall be extended to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have the right of residence or permanent residence.   Therefore Article 24 could be taken to  exclude the host member state from an obligation to provide comprehensive medical assurance until the person has 5 years residency. Member states can chose to impose more favourable conditions  ie   Anyone on CMU on 30th Sept 2007 will continue their entitlement but they are under no obligation to give this concession  These are my thoughts and until someone can find out the exact reasoning the French have used to implement these new rules we will find it difficult to challenge them.

From the Jersey citizens advice bureau         6.7.1.L1 Employment abroad Extent: Jersey   ---------------------------------------------------  The right to work in EU countries Jersey-born people should check their passports before considering working abroad to ensure that they do not have the endorsement on page 6 which means that they do not have the right to work in EU countries other than the UK. If a parent or grandparent was born in the UK this endorsement ought not be in the passport and the client should visit the Immigration and Nationality Department to seek an amendment taking proof of the UK connection. If the client wishes to seek employment or establish a home of any kind in one of the Member countries of the European Community it is essential that s/he contact that country's nearest Embassy or Consulate (see 7.8.1 ). Failure to do so may result in her/him not being adequately covered by Social Security or being faced with unexpected bills for taxes etc, or being unable to live in property that s/he may have purchased. If there is no endorsement in the passport it is still sensible to contact the appropriate Consulate if intending seeking employment or settling in another Member country.     My reading of this is that if a person has the endorsement then they would probably need a Visa to enter France and thereafter need a Carte de Sejour. If they do not have this endorsement then probably the same rules apply as for other UK citizens ie no entitlement to CMU This is made pretty clear from the response to Mary Honeyballs question which I posted earlier but which has been studiously ignored

The reply to Mary Honeyball from the commission has now been published   P-4833/07EN Answer given by Mr Špidla on behalf of the Commission (7.11.2007)     The Honourable Member refers to the situation of British citizens residing in France who, due to a change in French legislation, can no longer be covered by the "Couverture Maladie Universelle" (CMU), which is a French sickness insurance scheme for persons who are not insured under any sickness insurance scheme for specific categories of insured persons.   Under Regulation (EC) No 1408/71[1], workers and pensioners, as well as the members of their family, residing in a Member State other than the one in which they work or which pays their pension, are entitled to sickness benefits in the Member State of residence under the same conditions as a national of this Member State, but on behalf of the Member State where they work or which pays their pension.   The Commission draws the attention of the Honourable Member to the fact that Regulation (EC) No 1408/71 only covers workers (employed and self-employed), students, civil servants, pensioners and the members of their family and their survivors. However, European citizens who do not come under any of these categories, e.g. post-active persons who are not - yet - entitled to a statutory pension, would not be covered by Regulation (EC) No 1408/71[2]. In such cases, only national legislation applies.   Under Directive 2004/38/EC, inactive Union citizens must have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, and comprehensive sickness insurance coverage in the host Member State. Following the acquisition of the permanent right of residence (normally after five consecutive years of legal residence) these conditions are no longer applicable.  Furthermore, the Directive provides that Union citizens shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that State within the scope of the Treaty establishing the European Community.   The Commission will contact the French authorities in order to obtain detailed information about the French legislation on the "CMU" and examine its compatibility with Community law.   [1]     Regulation (EC) No 1408/71 of the Council of 14 June 1971 on the application of social security schemes to employed persons and their families moving within the Community, OJ L 149, 5.7.1971. [2]     See judgement of  Court of Justice of 11.7.1996, in the case C-25/96, Otte. 3 Directive 2004/38/EC of Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC, OJ L 158, 30.4.2004.  

I once made a carrot cake for a french neighbour"s birthday as his family was away at the time and he announced in the afternoon that he would be round with champagne at 6pm to toast his birthday.. He could not believe it was made with carrots and although he liked it he thought it was totally bizarre that a cake could be made with vegetables and spices. When the others returned I was asked to make another and they all appeared along with people I did not even know to see and taste the cake. It was a talking point for months and I am still asked to make some for special visitors and family parties. I use oil instead of butter as it makes the cake more moist, add lots of fruit and chopped nuts, bake in a loaf tin, and top with mascarpone with orange zest and more chopped nuts. The banana sandwich however, although discussed at great length, was never adopted as it was considered too too bizarre.

I have not read anything which says that people who are already here and have less than 5 years residency do not have to comply with the conditions laid down ie Droit au séjour  Conditions exigées  Pour disposer d'un droit au séjour en qualité de "non-actifs", les intéressés doivent remplir certaines conditions.  Les retraités et autres inactifs doivent disposer, pour eux et les membres de leur famille, de ressources suffisantes pour ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale français et d'une assurance maladie-maternité.  After all ,this is the part that the French Government are relying on to kick us out of the CMU retrospectively, so why would they not apply the part of registration at the Mairie and proving you have sufficient funds and assurance retrospectively also

There is legislation which covers what form the medical assurance must take CODE DE L'ENTREE ET DU SEJOUR DES ETRANGERS ET DU DROIT D'ASILE (Partie Réglementaire) Section 3 : Séjour d'une durée supérieure à trois mois   Article R121-4 (inséré par Décret nº 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007 art. 1 Journal Officiel du 22 mars 2007)    Les ressortissants qui remplissent les conditions mentionnées à l'article L. 121-1 doivent être munis de l'un des deux documents prévus pour l'entrée sur le territoire français par l'article R. 121-1.    L'assurance maladie mentionnée à l'article L. 121-1 doit couvrir les prestations prévues aux articles L. 321-1 et L. 331-2 du code de la sécurité sociale. Code de la securite sociale says Article L321-1 L'assurance maladie comporte :    1º) La couverture des frais de médecine générale et spéciale, des frais de soins et de prothèses dentaires, des frais pharmaceutiques et d'appareils, des frais d'analyses et d'examens de laboratoire, y compris la couverture des frais relatifs aux actes d'investigation individuels, des frais d'hospitalisation et de traitement dans des établissements de soins, de réadaptation fonctionnelle et de rééducation ou d'éducation professionnelle, ainsi que des frais d'interventions chirurgicales nécessaires pour l'assuré et les membres de sa famille, au sens fixé par l'article L. 313-3, y compris la couverture des médicaments, produits et objets contraceptifs et des frais d'analyses et d'examens de laboratoire ordonnés en vue de prescriptions contraceptives ;    2º) La couverture des frais de transport de l'assuré ou des ayants droit se trouvant dans l'obligation de se déplacer pour recevoir les soins ou subir les examens appropriés à leur état ainsi que pour se soumettre à un contrôle prescrit en application de la législation de sécurité sociale, selon les règles définies par les articles L. 162-4-1 et L. 322-5 et dans les conditions et limites tenant compte de l'état du malade et du coût du transport fixées par décret en Conseil d'Etat ;    3º La couverture, sur décision de la commission mentionnée à l'article L. 146-9 du code de l'action sociale et des familles, des frais d'hébergement et de traitement des enfants ou adolescents handicapés dans les établissements mentionnés au 2º et au 12º du I de l'article L. 312-1 du même code ainsi que celle des frais de traitement concourant à leur éducation dispensée en dehors de ces établissements, à l'exception de la partie de ces frais incombant à l'Etat en application des articles L. 112-1 à L. 112-4, L. 123-4-1, L. 351-1 à L. 351-3 et L. 352-1 du code de l'éducation ;    4º) La couverture des frais de soins et d'hospitalisation afférents à l'interruption volontaire de grossesse effectuée dans les conditions prévues à la section I du chapitre III bis du titre Ier du livre II du code de la santé publique ;    5º) L'octroi d'indemnités journalières à l'assuré qui se trouve dans l'incapacité physique constatée par le médecin traitant, selon les règles définies par l'article L. 162-4-1, de continuer ou de reprendre le travail ; l'incapacité peut être également constatée, dans les mêmes conditions, par la sage-femme dans la limite de sa compétence professionnelle et pour une durée fixée par décret ; toutefois, les arrêts de travail prescrits à l'occasion d'une cure thermale ne donnent pas lieu à indemnité journalière, sauf lorsque la situation de l'intéressé le justifie suivant des conditions fixées par décret.    6º) La couverture des frais relatifs aux actes et traitements à visée préventive réalisés dans le cadre des programmes mentionnés à l'article L. 1411-6 du code de la santé publique, et notamment des frais relatifs aux examens de dépistage et aux consultations de prévention effectués au titre des programmes prévus par l'article L. 1411-2 du même code ainsi que des frais afférents aux examens prescrits en application de l'article L. 2121-1 du même code et aux vaccinations dont la liste est fixée par arrêté des ministres chargés de la santé et de la sécurité sociale ;    7º) (Abrogé) ;    8º) (Abrogé) ;    9º) La couverture des frais relatifs à l'examen de prévention bucco-dentaire mentionné à l'article L. 2132-2-1 du code de la santé publique.   Article 331-2 L'assurance maternité couvre l'ensemble des frais médicaux, pharmaceutiques, d'analyse et d'examens de laboratoires, d'appareils et d'hospitalisation relatifs ou non à la grossesse, à l'accouchement et à ses suites, intervenant au cours d'une période définie par décret. Lorsque l'accouchement a lieu avant le début de cette période, l'assurance maternité prend en charge l'ensemble des frais mentionnés ci-dessus à compter de la date d'accouchement et jusqu'à l'expiration de ladite période.    L'assurance maternité couvre également :    1º Les frais d'examens prescrits en application du deuxième alinéa de l'article L. 2122-1 et des articles L. 2122-3 et L. 2132-2 du code de la santé publique ;    2º Les autres frais médicaux, pharmaceutiques, d'analyses et d'examens de laboratoires, d'appareils et d'hospitalisation relatifs à la grossesse, à l'accouchement et à ses suites, dont la liste est fixée par arrêté du ministre chargé de la sécurité sociale. So it apears that an assurance that only covers hospital charges is not acceptable  

[quote user="Joerger École"] I have been following the CMU issue for several months.  We recently received a letter that says that we are covered by CMU for the base as a result of being resident.  I was not sure that we would continue to be covered based on the various postings of others.  I am not gloating and feel very bad for all of those who have been denied coverage.  I am just confused as to why we are being covered and others are not.  Can anyone explain or shed light on why we are covered.  Here is our situation. We live in 41.  We are Americans living in France since 2002.  I am 63 and my wife is 62.  We have a modest income from work I do in the USA each year.  We have filed French taxes for the last four years (although we do not pay French income taxes due to the tax treaty with the USA.). Until this year we had to apply each year for a temporary visitor visa. This year we applied, and were granted, residence visas (all professions). Again, can anyone who understands all of this coming and going explain why we are being covered and what, if anything, we need to do to continue to receive coverage?  Thanks. James [/quote] The rule changes only apply to EU citizens.

Slightly puzzled If husband is over 65 he presumably has a UK old age pension,if so he is entitled to an E121 which then means he is entitled to register with CPAM for health care If he is not in receipt of a uk old age pension then he is not entitled to an E121 therefore not entitled at the moment the way the rules stand to health care via CMU If entitled to an E121 then wife is covered

I suggest that he joins this organisation http://www.adit.org.uk/ Then he can advise us all

Being a qualified accountant you would presumably never advocate that people asking for taxation advice seek that advice from a non specialist forum .No one on this forum is a qualified specialist  on French taxation matters.    

I found this post on another forum It says it is from the Dept of Health today but I am a bit suspicious as it is the persons first post Anyone any info or thoughts   "Thank you for your further email of 25 October to the Department of Health about the reciprocal healthcare agreement between the UK and France. The French National Health Ministry have confirmed to the Department that access to healthcare after five years as a resident in France is covered by article L122-1 of French law, as follows: . le code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers: Article L122-1 (inséré par Loi nº 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 art. 23 II Journal Officiel du 25 juillet rectificatif JOrF 16 septembre 2006) Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le ressortissant visé à l'article L. 121-1 qui a résidé de manière légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français. Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le membre de sa famille mentionné à l'article L. 121-3 acquiert également un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français à condition qu'il ait résidé en France de manière légale et ininterrompue avec le ressortissant visé à l'article L. 121-1 pendant les cinq années précédentes. Une carte de séjour d'une durée de validité de dix ans renouvelable de plein droit lui est délivrée. l'article L121-1 du même code qui fonde le droit au séjour du ressortissant communautaire: Article L121-1 (Loi nº 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 art. 23 II Journal Officiel du 25 juillet rectificatif JOrF 16 septembre 2006) Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, tout citoyen de l'Union européenne, tout ressortissant d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen ou de la Confédération suisse a le droit de séjourner en France pour une durée supérieure à trois mois s'il satisfait à l'une des conditions suivantes: 1º S'il exerce une activité professionnelle en France; 2º S'il dispose pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 4º de ressources suffisantes afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale, ainsi que d'une assurance maladie; 3º S'il est inscrit dans un établissement fonctionnant conformément aux dispositions législatives et réglementaires en vigueur pour y suivre à titre principal des études ou, dans ce cadre, une formation professionnelle, et garantit disposer d'une assurance maladie ainsi que de ressources suffisantes pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 5º afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale; 4º S'il est un descendant direct âgé de moins de vingt et un ans ou à charge, ascendant direct à charge, conjoint, ascendant ou descendant direct à charge du conjoint, accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées aux 1º ou 2º; 5º S'il est le conjoint ou un enfant à charge accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées au 3º. I hope this reply is helpful. Yours sincerely," Edward Corbett Customer Service Centre

I have a Government pension but do not have any E forms and have never paid social charges .My understanding was that these remain taxable in the UK and were not the subject of Social charges in France

While I agree that the contents of the letter is not correct I have a couple of points This is a standard letter prepared by the Securite Sociale and sent out to all CPAM,s on 4th Oct together with the circular laying down the new rules. I was shown this letter last week by Charente CPAM altho I have not received mine yet. I pointed out at the time that it was incorrect in my case,I have been here more than five years. I quoted and showed the rep Loi no 2006-911 Article 122-1 and Decret no 2007 -371   article R122-1 re right to permenant residence in France after 5 years without any conditions. The CPAM rep just said that they were following instructions from the sociale securite. The problem is. Who do you appeal to ?  

The Embassy and Consular staff do offer assistance and advice in case of emergency. We had excellent service from the vice consul in Chicago earlier this year after my wifes sister died leaving a handicaped son .The vice consul went to the hospital,liased with us,met relatives at the airport,arranged the funeral,arranged for the handicaped son to be admitted to a care home,gave us legal advice,arranged for a lawyer and all at no charge. She also apologised being absent for half a day as she had to visit a British citizen who had been arrested in another city in North west America. So you could say that the Embassy staff come galloping to the rescue  

A translation of that could be ""All non working EU citizens under retirement age whether already resident in France or planning to move etcetcetc will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they qualify as a French resident which is after five years of regular uninterrupted resaidence"" IMO Just means that you no longer need private medical insurance after 5 years ,not that the French are going to give you it.. I would suggest you ask for clarification

First of all you should have posted this in the Western France section of this Forum which covers Charente. Mansle has a couple of Butchers and a very small market a couple of days a week (vegetables) It has 3 restaurants all open all year very difficult to give an opinion some mans meat is another mans poison There are 4 bars open all year but I think they all close about 7.30 or 8pm I may be wrong as I very rarely go into Mansle at night.There are plenty of books in the local bookshops and supermarkets in French about the Charente. It is very difficult to give an opinion as we do not know your interests what you normally do in the UK for entertainment etc.

I live about 5 km from Mansle and 10km from La Rochfoucauld,so between the two. Mansle does not have much in the way of shops 2 supermarkets a couple of Boulangeries,Butchers a hotel 2 restaurants .It is prety quiet but so are all villages. If you want activity you need to go to Angouleme. La Rochfoucauld is larger and is busier during the day but like many french villages/towns the pavements get rolled up at night.

Well we did get an answer of sorts not a lot but something   Rosie: I'm 16 years old and my parents have been British residents in France since 1999. They're about to lose their health care rights even though they have an income and contribute to the social security system. What will the British government do to protect my rights in Europe? Jim replies: Thanks for your post Rosie.  A number of people have been in touch about this today and on my Foreign Office blog.  We have had further contact with the French Ministry of Health and we await clarification from them on this.  We have raised our concerns with the French Government regarding the impact on British citizens living in France.  In particular we have asked if any change is to take place that it does not apply retrospectively.  We will continue to raise this.

First question has appeared so it is working

It has started there is a short delay

Jim Murphy is hosting a web chat today at 1645 http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page13512.asp   He is minister for europe  You can post a question re health care changes. If enough of us post a message maybe we will get some sort of update