Lehaut

Those of us who have the 5 year residency box ticked may be interested in the following which I have just received from the Embassy in Paris.  Have been pushing them for a reply for some time:   Dear .....   We understand that this situation is very frustrating.  However, I assure you - as I said in my previous email - that our Health Attaché is in regular contact with the French Health Ministry regarding this measure and is representing your concerns.  Because this measure has only recently been instated, not all CPAM offices have yet received the updated information from the French government.  The French Health Ministry will be sending a circular to the local CPAM offices clarifying the directive on residency very soon. This is French law and the French Ministry of Health has to issue this information to its own local offices.  We are working with the French government to make sure that they do this as quickly as possible.   Kind regards Sara Gill Press and Communications British Embassy 

[quote user="sunshine 2"] We went into Sarlat CMU today to talk about the letter received on Saturday asking for more doc's. (I had posted elsewhere yesterday that the English speaking helpline told me that this letter was a computer mistake - but we wanted to be sure).  The CMU assistant confirmed that Saturday's letter was a mistake and should be binned. We went on to talk about our cover and attestation for 2008 etc and she was very very clear that it has now been decided that CMU de base will not exist for ANYONE from 31/3/08 - the whole system will be disbanded - for French, English or any Nationality - the option to make paying contributions will not exist for anyone!!  She inferred (but I did not double check) that CMU complementaire will continue to exist (presumably they could not deny an avenue of free cover for the very poorest). She seemed surprised that we had not yet received a letter telling us about the discontinuation fo CMU de base  - she phone Perigueux office as we showed her an attestation for 100% cover (for serious illness) which indicated cover for that illness until Sept 08.  She was clearly given short shrift on the phone and again repeated that Perigueux confirmed that there will be no CMU de base to belong to for anyone of any Nationality and regardless of whether they have serious illness, beyond 31/3/08 and that the 100% cover will end automatically on that date. If true - then this would be a major deviation from what has been publically announced by the French so far.  It would put paid to many of our argumentsw about discrimination against Brits etc and, would mean that for anyone who has been here over 5 years and was hoping to re-gain entry to CMU that there would be no option to do so as the option is simply not available to anyone. Further, she told us that anyone with an income earned in France (eg gites, chambre d'hote) is being told to go and register as independent workers at the offices of CAMONS, and pay health cotisations via them - or register with Chamber of commerce.  Can anyone else verify this please - perhaps by visiting their own CMU and asking?????  [/quote] OK we try again,  the Email we were replying to under the heading of CMU de base etc is the one above.  Our comment is below We are in the middle of building up evidence to contest our case with the autorities.  As part of this we have had a fruitful exchange of emails with someone within the CMU itself, at gouv.fr not local level.  Have run the story past him, this is his reply: "Soit vous avez mal compris, soit cette dame a dit une ânerie" As we understand this translates as: " Either you misunderstood or this lady is talking a load of nonsense" Hopefully he knows!   Lehaut

We are in the middle of building up evidence to contest our case with the autorities.  As part of this we have had a fruitful exchange of emails with someone within the CMU itself, at gouv.fr not local level.  Have run the story past him, this is his reply: "Soit vous avez mal compris, soit cette dame a dit une ânerie" As we understand this translates as: " Either you misunderstood or this lady is talking a load of nonsense" Hopefully he knows!   Lehaut      

[quote user="Lehaut"]Thanks.  I have given them a try using our situation, they claim to reply in 8 days. Will keep you posted.[/quote] As promised, I include here the info we sent and the reply we received.  Its quite long but there is no point adding to the confusion by cutting bits out. Came to France with my family from the UK in 1996 as an economically inactive person (Retired but well under state retirement age). Applied for and received Carte Sejour as met all the French/European requirements for residence. Got second Carte Sejour 5 years later. Registered for Tax in France, pay all cotisations for Health Care (CMU) and other charges/Taxes in France. At that time, Private Health Care Insurance was illegal in France, everyone had to pay into the State system. France has now announced under directive 2004/38 that our rights to health care under the CMU we have been paying into will be removed on 31 March 2008. After that date Private Health Care Insurance will have to be taken out. They do not appear to have taken any notice of the following in the same directive: Chapitre IV, "Droit de Séjour Permanent", Section 1, Article 16  - le Droit de Séjour Permanent après  une période ininterrompue de cinq ans sur le territoire Français.   Chapitre IV Article 24 "Égalité de traitement" .....indique que ces gens ....bénéficie de l'égalité de traitement avec les ressortissants de la France. Neither my family nor I are a threat to public order We have sufficient income (UK pension) to live on and are under the state retirement age.I do not receive or have asked for any form of State Income benefit/unemployment benefit etc. It would appear to me that under these articles the French do not have the right to remove our ability to continue to pay into the Health Care scheme that is available to French Residents. Have written to the British Embassy who intially claimed to be in consultation with the French Health Ministry and that people who have been here for 5 years will not be affected. They will now not reply to any emails on the subject. Have tried to contest this with the local CPAM (Health) authorities and the main office at St Lô. They will not entertain any contest until we have received official notification (letters they think will be sent out Nov/Dec this year). Have spoken to CLEISS (Service juridique) who indicate that our interpretion is correct but will not involve themselves. Have exchanged emails with the CMU in Paris who also indicate that our interpretation is correct, but can do nothing. Have written to the CNAMTS in Paris and are awaiting a reply. If, as all indications show, we are entitled to remain in the CMU as British citizens who have lived legally and permanently in France for 11 years, we urgently need something to cause the French system to acknowledge our legal right to stay in the CMU. This must be done before 31 March 2008. The documentation should be in French and understandable/applicable under the French legal system.  Signed Reply Your analysis of the legal state of play is correct, at least from our point of view, and we have nothing to add as regards the situation of people who have acquired the status of permanent resident in France. (The situation is less clear for newcoming "inactive" migrant EU citizens.) Please note that our service does not speak on behalf of the European Commission. The Commission has received many complaints already, is well aware of the matter and is currently examining what position to take in light of EC law. If it finds that there is a breach of EC law, it will probably ask the French authorities to explain their point of view and, if it is not convinced, it could eventually decide to take France to the European Court of Justice. But you are free to add another complaint to the lot, if you feel that it is not sufficient that we flag the case - which we'll do - to the competent service of the Commission through our service's feedback mechanism. Just in case, you will find in the following guide the instructions to send a complaint to the Commission (and all necessary information of the effect it can have in follow-up): http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/enforcing-rights/index_en.html Significant the reaction of CLEISS, which is perfectly placed to advise French authorities on its obligations under EC law. We could suggest that you use the SOLVIT network to put even more pressure within the French administration. SOLVIT is an online problem solving network of EU contact points within national administrations of the member states, interacting under the observation of the Commission and whose complaints and solutions statistics are periodically examined at the EU Council (peer review and judgement). All information and complaint form at: http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_fr.htm We believe that the SOLVIT procedure could help force France to re-consider the impact of its change in policy, if it is confirmed that there is a breach of EC law. The Citizen’s Signpost Service has examined your enquiry and considers that the matter could be dealt with by the SOLVIT system. SOLVIT is an informal network to resolve problems caused by the misapplication of EU rules by public authorities in another Member State. There is a SOLVIT centre in every European Union Member State (as well as in Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein). SOLVIT centres are part of the national administrations and are committed to providing real solution to problems within 10 weeks. The use of SOLVIT is free of charge.  Disclaimer On the basis of the information available, the Citizen Signpost Service has suggested that your case could be dealt with SOLVIT. However, the advice from the Citizen Signpost Service is of a non-contractual nature only and does not in any way guarantee that SOLVIT will agree to deal with or resolve your case. It is the responsibility of the SOLVIT centre(s) to decide whether they will accept to handle your case. SOLVIT will inform you on the decisions and outcomes of the case. The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission. Needless to say we have sent the info direct to SOLVIT and will follow up all the other avenues!!!

Thanks.  I have given them a try using our situation, they claim to reply in 8 days. Will keep you posted.

Am getting feeling of Déjà vu here.  When we came in 96, we used a series of booklets under the "Citizens First" Right of Residence in France articles.  Paraphrasing slightly  from the pamphlet: "  or if you are an economically inactive person you will have to prove that you have health insurance coving all types of health risk in France and adequate resources (ie an income not less than the annual income ceiling for receving the minimum benefit under Title VIII of the Social Security Code). At present, single persons must have minimum resources of at least FF 40.834 per annum.  Persons accompanied by their spouse and any dependent children...FF 71,525 per annum". If it was the individuals intention to stay in France for more than 3 months, you had to apply for a residence permit within 3 months of arriving in France.  Failure to apply was punishable by fines of up to FF10,000. National Rules Decree 94-211 of 11 March 1994.  Order of 6 April 1995. Armed with my early retirement "pension" payment letter and E106 we got our first Carte Sejour.  Second 5 years later (we were in the equivalent of the CMU then).  Our third card was refused as they are not necessary for inactives (we were told). Have I missed something here, or have the French forgotten the rules already exist, or have they annulled them and are now regretting it?   

Cooperlola Have sent you an Email. Lehaut

Martin, We are exactly in the same position as you, although we have been here for 11 years.  We bought our house 16 years ago and were lucky enough to work with well place French officials who could help us establish a correct legal "inactive" position in France.  Having also been on the receiving end of major goal post shifts within the UK political/budget arena, the first lesson I learnt is that the words "they cannot do that"  do not exist.  "They" can do what they want and you just have to find a way round it.  This last part the French are past masters at! I have signed on with ASSEDIC and have explained the same thing about taking a job away from a French person (unemployement in our area is about 11%).  I shall be re-iterating this to the ANPE on Monday morning as I go for my first apppointment.  Have also made the same point to the CPAM people.  They all agree, but as they are at the bottom of the pile, can do nothing about it.  Even the supervisors are at a loss.  Have had some correspondence with the CMU HQ staff but at the moment, our (and your) position appears to be so far outside anything they have experienced, they don't have (at the moment) the regulations to deal with us under 2004/38, amended or influenced by Article L122-1 (inséré par Loi nº 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 art. 23 II Journal Officiel du 25 juillet rectificatif JOrF 16 septembre 2006) I also think there is a problem with vocabulary.  We call ourselves "retired" but the French don't seem to recognise this term when applied to someone under the official retirement age.  One official in the CMU when asked what "droits" a French person in our position has re healthcare said that peole like that don't exisit in France!  You only have to visit the AMELI site and trawl through the numerous special rights departments that deal with the pensions of every one from miners to authors to realise what a briar patch the whole thing is. If the British Embassy have the information they claim to have (see my previous post), then they should be able to issue the agreement made with the French Ministry.  We are still pushing them for a reply. Illegitimi non carborundum!

Have read most of the posts on this Health Care Issue and we have also been challenging the system.  Not much luck with our Embassy and we have visited our local CPAM twice now.  Found and read the Directive 2004/38 and have spoken to CLEISS who agree that after our 11 legal and contributing years in France, we should have the same rights as a French person, but no, they would not take this up with the CPAM. Nothing to do with them, even though their number is on the Point d'Information!  They were happy, however, to have themselves cited in a "contestation". However, the CPAM Office have told us that we cannot contest this ruling until we have a letter from the CPAM HQ telling us that we will be refused cover after 31 March 2008.  Even though they were looking at the directive and received a memo on 2 Oct with the info on it!  They will also refuse to accept any attempt from us to use the Commission de recours amiable (CRA) until after the refusal letter is issued.  By this stage, we had the office manager and 2 other members of staff involved.  The manager rang St Lô (Manche) and was told that the letters would be sent out to their respective clients Nov/Dec 07.  Then we can contest the ruling.  Acknowledging that all this takes time, should the matter not be resoved until after 31 March, we will still have to take out private cover until we get our rights back!  If we are successful will they then repay our insurance cost??? The Embassy emailed us on 9 Oct "There has been no change in the information given to us by the French Ministry of Health, therefore I confirm that the information on our website still stands."  As this site still quotes the 5 year rule, the only clear way forward that we can see is for the French Health Ministry to issue an updated memo to the CPAM staff with the correct information on it.  We are currenly pursuing the CMU over this, but as just individuals don't hold out much hope. All the officials we have dealt with so far are amazed we are worried about something that won't happen till next year!