andyh4 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 [quote user="Russethouse"]So why not when it is public money?But thats the point, it is public money and there is not enough to go around, so why give it to people who will in the most part, add it to the economy of another country? Then stop it for everyone. I have no problem with that. I simply object to being treated as a second class who it seems lazes around in tropical sunshine all winter.The idea that you can go where you want and receive money in the same way as you would in the UK just wont work, what about the anomally of those who live in Canada and Australia who do not even get the pension increments? Those anomolies are also unfair, but importantly are not contradicted in law.Furthermore my guess is that Wooly for instance, like many others, gets a proportion of a pension because he doesn't qualify for a full one, is he now going to get a full heating allowance ? I believe that is how it works in the UK. So if that is the rule, that is the rule.[/quote] YCCM Betty - when I left the UK with eyes wide open, I would receive a pension linked to inflation and WFA stood for something rude that had nothing to do with pensions. You might argue then that I had no expectation of a fuel bonus - but then the bonus was partly in lieu of changes to the inflation proofing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 OI Yandypandy, I get a big, fat, full, state one with which I am able to support about half my life and that of the doggies. For which I contributed something like 32 years mainly voluntary contributions until they told me I had paid enough. It means we only go to the bins at the back of the supermarket about two weeks in every month and have to rely on road kill for a decent Sunday roast. The doggies used to bring in hairs(sic) but we had to stop that when they brought the child to which they were attached. But I did prove that Jonathon Swift's recipe for spit roasted child is very good, though it lacked a bit of garlic which was quickly put right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 So you paid voluntary contributions, but no doubt there are others who didn't. ( Try Escofiers 'roast kid for a bit of variety [:)] )I suspect the next thing will be that it will means tested,(which was mooted before the last budget) or only go to people on additional benefits, so it won't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 "Not only that, but for an awful lot, they were in a position (certainly denied to future generations) to retire early - because if they hadn't retired early then they'd still have been in the UK working at 60 and therefore fully entitled to WFA when they moved abroad. "My "early retirement" was a forced one. I left the UK before I was due to retire at 60, because a year after being made redundant, at 59, I decided there was little chance of employment to last me up til 60 - and believe me, I tried very hard to get get a job ... and with hubby already retired and over here it seemed a sensible, if somewhat early, to end my career - but, as I said in my post, you don't get it when you get to state retirement age, you have to wait for (possibly) up to another year ... even if you live in the country.So, fairs fair - all qualify or none, but not this mismash we've got at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I might suggest that, if you have the ability to do so, you tune into "Newsnight" right now on BBC 2...where they're explaining just how well off today's pensioners actually are!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I hope some one remembered that a few years ago pensioners could supplement their income using the interest from savings and government bonds....that opportunity has rather gone out of the window ......interest rates on savings are pitiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Mmm, the question of means testing and my mind always goes back to when I started work.There were two men there who did the same job, hence same salary, and coming up for retirement. One had been careful all his life and saved and the other ensured the survival of breweries. I can still remember the words of Frank:'He has p55sed his money up against a wall all his life and when he reitres will get all sorts of state handouts. Because I have been careful all my life and saved I will get nothing'.Thereby the state helps the irresponsible whilst penalising the responsible.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 When my father died he left my mother with what they both thought would be enough for her to live comfortably for the rest of her days. As it happens for the past two and a half years she has needed carers, 4 times a day. The savings she had are virtually gone. Of course had my father not saved the money they could have enjoyed more luxury when they were younger and the state would have paid for the carers......sometimes it makes you wonder why anyone bothers to look after themselves at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"] road kill for a decent Sunday roast. The doggies used to bring in hairs(sic) but we had to stop that when they brought the child to which they were attached. But I did prove that Jonathon Swift's recipe for spit roasted child is very good, though it lacked a bit of garlic which was quickly put right![/quote]If only I had a doggie, but we ate that so now we get by on slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails, (with plenty of grass of course)[8-|] [quote user="Russethouse"] savings [/quote]Do people still have these . . .[blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Russethouse"]When my father died he left my mother with what they both thought would be enough for her to live comfortably for the rest of her days. As it happens for the past two and a half years she has needed carers, 4 times a day. The savings she had are virtually gone. Of course had my father not saved the money they could have enjoyed more luxury when they were younger and the state would have paid for the carers......sometimes it makes you wonder why anyone bothers to look after themselves at all.[/quote]So do you suggest that the state should not pay for carers for people with no money, such as your mother when hers has run out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 On the contrary, just like the argument having WFA even if you live abroad, the system should be standardised so that everyone gets help from the state...to begin with the level at which state help is applicable should be raised further.Its a long time since you lived in the Uk Norman and perhaps when you were here there were fewer people needing this sort of aid and maybe even fewer had not made every effort to provide for themselves. These days is not unknown for several generations of the same family never to have worked and really with very little intention of ever doing so, they literally live on state handouts from cradle to grave and have no work ethic what so ever. Its not that they can't work, they wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Norman, I didn't feel that RH was making that point. We went through similar experiences with my mother and I make exactly the same comment as RH. My mother was in a nursing home for several years paying her own care fees because she had more than £18,000 in savings (the critical level at the time) while other residents who had no savings (or below the threshold) got exactly the same service but paid for by the local authority. It really does beg the question as to whether it was finally worth her having bothered to do any saving during her earlier lifetime. She wasn't in a state to appreciate that her savings were draining away, £500 pw or £26000 pa, or she would have been distraught.This is not an isolated case, and I met many families with the same experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Russethouse"]On the contrary, just like the argument having WFA even if you live abroad, the system should be standardised so that everyone gets help from the state...to begin with the level at which state help is applicable should be raised further.Its a long time since you lived in the Uk Norman and perhaps when you were here there were fewer people needing this sort of aid and maybe even fewer had not made every effort to provide for themselves. These days is not unknown for several generations of the same family never to have worked and really with very little intention of ever doing so, they literally live on state handouts from cradle to grave and have no work ethic what so ever. Its not that they can't work, they wont. [/quote]The problem with means-tested allowances especially when they are based on capital is that they penalise those who have been prudent and saved for their old age. I received WFA for 6 years while I was still employed and I suspect there were many other recipients in that situation. Also means testing a benefit often means that some people do not apply for it because they then see it as charity and not as something they are entitled to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="sid"]Norman, I didn't feel that RH was making that point. We went through similar experiences with my mother and I make exactly the same comment as RH. My mother was in a nursing home for several years paying her own care fees because she had more than £18,000 in savings (the critical level at the time) while other residents who had no savings (or below the threshold) got exactly the same service but paid for by the local authority. It really does beg the question as to whether it was finally worth her having bothered to do any saving during her earlier lifetime. She wasn't in a state to appreciate that her savings were draining away, £500 pw or £26000 pa, or she would have been distraught.This is not an isolated case, and I met many families with the same experiences.[/quote] My mother is in her own home, which the local authority encourage, the cost of her carers is currently between £2800 and £3000 per month ! We are very lucky with her current carers, they are excellent (they haven't all been by any means) but they are very poorly paid, in fact its almost impossible for them to earn the minimum wage because their calls are not particularly close together......running an agency must be very profitable ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 But will those carers ever be in a position to save enough to be able to provide for themselves if they get to the same situation?.I don't doubt that sid's and your parents worked hard and were prudent, as were mine, but often so-called 'savings' are actually an inheritance or a postal code lottery in that the value of a house in the South East may be much higher than one in a deindustralised Northern town even though both families worked equally hard (or not).RH is right that I am out of touch with the UK, but as you for yourself it is the agencies (and the capital behind them) that get the money out of the system not the poor bl**dy workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Perhaps for some inheritance comes into it, but in my parents case it was a very small part of the equation and actually completely unexpected ( an uncle left my father something, but not enough to get excited about, and the uncle was never in a high paid job, he just believed in saving and looking after himself) I can't count the number of times my father has saved money and my mother has sighed and said, " jam tomorrow"..........My feeling is that the whole care industry needs looking into, but some carers are obviously paid more, the people who go to the ladies next door turn up in very razy upmarket cars, Jags and the like.....I think you are missing the point, the carers would get state aid to pay for their care, and so should everyone who has also paid in what has been requested. Just like the argument for non residents getting the Winter Fuel Allowance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Website now updatedhttp://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Pensionsandretirementplanning/Benefits/BenefitsInRetirement/DG_198331 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyA Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It still seems to say that if you moved abroad before you reached pension age that you may be entitled to WFA. I can't see any clarification of that, but I don't know if I am missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Elsewhere it says that you have to have had a recent contributions history (recent is not defined). Which I guess means that when I retire, even though I will have a long NI contributions history, I will not be entitled to WFA since my contributions ceased quite a number of years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyA Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Well that does sound daft. If you have enough contributions to get a pension then surely you should get it. Otherwise recent might not be recent enough if you are abroad but would be fine if you moved back to the UK? If all WFA abroad is 1% of the total, how much are we talking about here? My contributions finished much later than my OH, but I don't have as many so I might get it and he won't?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote user="EmilyA"]Well that does sound daft. If you have enough contributions to get a pension then surely you should get it. Otherwise recent might not be recent enough if you are abroad but would be fine if you moved back to the UK? If all WFA abroad is 1% of the total, how much are we talking about here? My contributions finished much later than my OH, but I don't have as many so I might get it and he won't?? [/quote]WFA is paid per household in the UK. You get if there is one person in the household who qualifies. If two of you are qualified and claim then you each get 50% of the amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 In any case if you left the UK permanently before 5 January 1998, you willnot be eligible to claim a Winter Fuel Payment within the EEA or inSwitzerland as you could not have acquired entitlement to a WinterFuel Payment in the UKso that's me out [8-|] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It still says:You may only be eligible for a Winter Fuel Payment if you've already qualified for it before you moved to an EEA country or Switzerland.The Winter Fuel Team at the International Pension Centre will advise you how to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 If you live in an EEA country or Switzerland and do not get the Winter Fuel Payment then you need to make a claim. A claim form will be available from August from the International Pension Centre or you can download it from the following link.http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@over50/documents/digitalasset/dg_180315.pdfHaving contacted the Pensions Service today I am assured that I am entitled to WFA despite having moved to France before becoming eligible under the old rules. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 As I posted above those who moved to France before becoming eligible for WFA will still not be eligible.That is the point of the 1998 date, as since the WFA dates from then those who were here before could not be eligible before moving over.This is made very clear in Part 3 of the claim form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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