NickP Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 I've noticed this syndrome a few times in my life, politicians get too big for their boots and start to think they know more than the man on the Clapham omnibus. No matter if the MPs are socialist or Tory, the people slap them down by voting against them. It's a great reminder, although to be truthful the anti-Labour or should I say Momentum backlash in this election was seismic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 But getting rid of Momentum is gonna be very very difficult given they have quite a few new, Momentum chosen MPs. If Corbyn is staying on it is to give them a chance to dig in deep.Removing them is like getting rid of bamboo plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 Conservatives in for 5 years so next election 2024. What will happen during that time? Will those traditional Labour voters who voted Tory become disillusioned? Momentum carries on as it is and in 2024 those voters once again vote Momentum Labour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 [quote user="PaulT"]Conservatives in for 5 years so next election 2024. What will happen during that time? Will those traditional Labour voters who voted Tory become disillusioned? Momentum carries on as it is and in 2024 those voters once again vote Momentum Labour?[/quote]At least they probably won't elect Harold's dad again[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Mcdonnell GONE. Thats one dose of the Trots away, more to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 They could elect Diane Abbott leader - that would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 You mean Goody Two Shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 As a very disappointed lifelong Labour voter, I don't think it's anything to do with the momentum/marxist/ communist fears.Corbyn never took a strong stand on Brexit, and goodness knows why - he admired Tony Benn and never wanted to join in the first place. By not speaking honestly on that he lost much of his support in the the LP heartlands.imo this election was all about Brexit.And as for Dianne Abbott - she's a very popular MP in her Hackney constituency, which is multiracial. She is impartial, supports Jews, black people and all other minority groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 I am sure she is an excellent local MP but seriously doubt her ability to translate into a minister. Just as JC could never have translated into PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajal Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 [quote user="Patf"]And as for Dianne Abbott - she's a very popular MP in her Hackney constituency, which is multiracial. She is impartial, supports Jews, black people and all other minority groups.[/quote]and as Shadow Home Secretary illegally consumes alcohol on public transport whilst in 2003 she cast aside the comprehesive schools the majority of her constituents are forced to use to have her son privately educated having already denounced colleagues for sending their children to selective schools.Would this be the same Dianne Abbott you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 She's human, like the rest of us. Cajal - hasn't anyone anyone in your family ever done something like that? I know some of mine have.What you're saying is that MPs have to behave in a super- moral way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Patf, I am sure that it was much more than just Brexit that resulted in the debacle. Corbyn, insane avalanche of uncosted policies, unnecessary Marxist dogmatism, really out of touch with voters as opposed to the metropolitan elite who came up with all the cobblers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 Perhaps that is where Labour went wrong. Lifelong supporters will vote without questioning what Labour is offering as well as what the other parties are offering.Are supermarkets similar in this. In the UK shoppers were staunch supporters of a single supermarket such as Tesco, Sainsbuys Waitrose etc. Then they suddenly discovered that the likes of Aldi and Lidl could provide the quality at a lower cost. The result the two German companies are expanding whilst the others are struggling.There is perhaps more information available that people will not vote for this party or that party because my parents voted for them so I have always voted for them.Mind you, be careful of the media spreading false views. Private Eye highlighted that the Daily Mail ran an article slating Corbyn for being opposed to conflicts such as the Gulf War and other conflicts.............exactly the same ones that the DM ran editorials that were also opposed to those conflicts but it did not publicise this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajal Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 [quote user="Patf"]She's human, like the rest of us. Cajal - hasn't anyone anyone in your family ever done something like that? I know some of mine have.What you're saying is that MPs have to behave in a super- moral way.[/quote]I must say I admire your much misplaced resolve in support of Dianne Abbott.Yes, we are all human, although that term should only be used loosely where certain of society are concerned.However, neither myself nor any of my family have chosen to follow a career of politics and public leadership. She has and on that basis the public is entitled to expect her to conduct herself in line with her chosen way of life. Yes, that is what I am saying, she must behave in a 'super-moral way'. I would suggest she thinks twice before slugging on a can of alcohol on public transport in full view of the people she expects to follow the laws that her Westminster organisation has imposed upon them. I would also suggest that if she wished to criticise her colleagues on their childrens education choices whilst privately educating her own she should have applied more thought into which flavour of politics she decided to follow.As to being a good constituency MP towards black and Jewish people, the borough of Hackney and Stoke Newington's demographic is of people of colour and the largest concentration of Charedi Hasidic Jews in Europe. She wouldn't have lasted this long had she ignored that fact.Although from the neighbouring borough to Jeremy Corbyn she still holds that 'Islington' attitude and mentality which transfers itself to the 'Westminster Bubble' at the detriment of the good people like those from your own neck of the woods.Take a couple of minutes to read the Wiki link in my post above to enable you to fully understand how this public-servant operates and conducts herself. Finally, what amazes me when I read French forums is how many 'sitting on the terrace, wine quoffing, socialist elite living here in France' seem to all know what is best for the UK. Let's face it we all know who are the most adept ones to sort out the woes of the UK. Unfortunately they are all to busy driving taxis or cutting hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Re Diane Abbott, she did herself no favours a few years ago by stating figures that were so far from reality that it was obvious that she had not a clue as to what she was talking about.Surely it would have been better to have faced the wrath of the journalist asking why she didn't know, than to have been mocked like that. Human yes, but that was not the only time she was so ill prepared and it just has made her look rather half-baked.And today, Corbyn and his acolytes have been using Trump like blaming against the press, 'never' has a leader been so assailed by the press, especially the BBC......... which is strange, because I have lots of staunch Tory friends and they believe the BBC to only have a leftie bias and pro Corbyn........ not that I can see that myself.Corbyn views were pretty much like mine when I was 16, as probably were his..... thing is, fifty years on and the realities of life have changed mine.......... and the other thing about him is that some of the things he bangs on about, were done when he was a bit of a renagade MP in the Blair government. So Labour was those what did it, or started it. Years ago, I used to ask family members who lived in Sedgefield to vote old Tony out and they said that they loved him.... for me, and never having lived in the country during his reign, he was Thatcher in a suit. And from my point of view, an awful lot of the bad things that are happening now, go back to that 'Blair' time, for me a black time in british politics as I cannot 'see' how he was in any way a socialist. Me, I am a socialist at heart, with a few extremist views and for the first time in my life, I voted Tory this time to get our DREADFUL DREADFUL Labour MP out and others obviously felt the same.........[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alittlebitfrench Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 True Idun.Except, by voting Tory you now have Brexit. Brexit is going to happen.The social and economic effects of Brexit will last generations. And you have lost free movement. Which I think is the most important issue. Corbyn is an old miserable bloke. Yes he could have done an awful lot of damage. But there is no way he could have done as much damage as Brexit.I feel sorry for UK kids. That now can't escape the UK. They are trapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 The freedom of movement as it is now, has not been in place for that long. Rules used to be strict and I know brits in France who moved when there was no inkling that it was heading to be the path towards the US of E, and they moved in the early 70's and when they moved to France, had to jump through pretty much the same hoops we had to in the early 80's. It was what it was, we chose to live in France, and France had it's own rules, c'est tout!So as far as I am concerned, it is rollocks to imagine that people cannot move, they always have and always will. I have had many debates, probably arguments more like, with Quillan who loved the EU, and I hate it, I always have and more so in it's current form, and yet in spite of that, I did move to France and stayed a very long time. I cannot think of much to say that is good about the EU. I know people in business, and some of the actual things that happen with EU rules, beggars belief. As actually too many EU rules, are interpreted by each country in their own sweet way AND sometimes not even put through into their laws until they can be bothered, however, there is a fast track in the UK, so even nonsense goes through, maybe we have been the best of europeans?? All I know is that it is a nightmare for at least two people I know trying to deal with other EU countries. And problematic for some others.Trade is fine. And I don't believe that any of the peoples of the EU will 'ever' think along the same lines, they don't now and I doubt that they ever will. Yes, I am sure it will change things, but we had already decided in a referendum, it is just these last three years of nonsense that means that it has not gone through already. The Liberal Party, dare to call itself 'democratic' and ignored a referendum, and I am not the only one that thinks it is GREAT that Joe Swinson lost her seat, in fact, what joy! AND if Scotland votes to leave the Union, well, so be it, and I live in the NE of England, not as if I am at the other end of the country. I do wonder if the EU would welcome Scotland, but who knows, and frankly I don't really care if they leave the Union and just to join another or maybe not.edit, on the news there was a lady who said she just wanted us out of the EU,because that was how democracy worked and that, in spite of voting to remain and IF the referendum had said to remain, I would have accepted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Perhaps the referendum was the most democratic thing since.....well, the previous referendum.The 2019 GE voting results for two parties:LibDems - 3,675,342 - 11 seatsSNP - 1,242,380 - 48 seatsSo get 3 times the votes and you get less than a quarter of the seats - what a wonderful system.On the bright side those in France receiving a pension from the UK will now get more euros because of the strengthening pound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Would that I could believe in proportional representation, but I don't think that it could actually work in the UK, or England at least.We have first past the post and that is it. Look at the mess we have had over the last few years with parliaments that have not had a proper majority. It has been dreadful.We simply are not the germans and the other countries who manage well with coalitions, although some do not, do they.That people chose not to vote is something that I would actually legislate for, just vote, I don't care if they invalidate their vote, but vote people should. And be fined if they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 "We simply are not the germans and the other countries who manage well with coalitions, although some do not, do they."Israel is an example of a country with prop.rep.- they're just about to have a 3rd GE in about a year because neither of the 2 leading parties has been able to form a viable coalition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weegie Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 [quote user="PaulT"]The 2019 GE voting results for two parties:LibDems - 3,675,342 - 11 seatsSNP - 1,242,380 - 48 seatsSo get 3 times the votes and you get less than a quarter of the seats - what a wonderful system. [/quote]The comparison isn't valid. SNP was Scotland only. LibDems were whole of UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Weegie the SNP might only have been Scotalnd but getting 48 seats means that as England does not have its own parliament it means they have an undue influence on England only matters.Plus whilst it can be problematic I am for PR.Conservative 294Labour 217Liberal Democrats 77Scottish Nationalist 26Green 18Democratic Unionist 5Sinn Fein 4Plaid Cymru 3Alliance 3Social Democratic & Labour 3These are the number via PR - which means that my vote counts instead of possibly being discounted because another party has been first past the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I believe there is more than one system of PR to consider, but I wonder, under any PR system, if one wants to bring the attention of one's MP some local problem, who does one contact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 And Belgium, they didn't have a government for quite a long time, maybe still have not? haven't looked.And Scotland, did that vote really mean that the scots actually want independence? Go on Boris, let them vote again, and see how the Sturgeon does. As I said I don't really care that much, I just get so sick of her angry face all the time, maybe it is unfortunate that she has such thin lips that look like gashes with that bright red lipstick, it doesn't help her 'look'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 If Scotland get its independence could Yorkshire apply too ? Their population is not much less than Scotland's and they don't hate the English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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