DSK, can we believe this?

[Clair]

Article on the respect of private life in France here.

Salient point:

[quote]Les journalistes auraient-ils été fondés, en droit, à publier des informations sur la vie privée deDSK?

Ils auraient été tout à fait dans leur droit. La ligne directrice de toutes ces exceptions à l'article 9 est l'intérêt pour le public. A partir du moment où une personne brigue la plus haute fonction élective, elle prête le flanc à toutes ces révélations sur sa vie privée. Le fait que cet homme mène une vie sentimentale ou sexuelle débridée est une information utile à chaque citoyen pour fixer son choix dans un cadre démocratique. Sur ce plan-là, le système juridique français est assez libéral.

L'attitude des journalistes relève plutôt d'un formatage de la presse. En France, on a pris l'habitude de dire: «L'information s'arrête à la porte

de la chambre à coucher.» Le plus bel exemple est l'affaire de la fille de François Mitterrand, dont tout le microcosme connaissait l'existence mais dont aucun journaliste n'a osé parler avant que Paris Match ne le fasse, avec l'accord tacite du Président. C'était pourtant une information légitime sur la situation du chef de l'Etat, dont la presse aurait pu faire état plus tôt sans grand risque.

From a legal standpoint, would journalists have been justified in publishing information on DSK's private life?

They would have been quite within their rights. The guideline of all the exceptions in Article 9 is the public interest. The moment a person aspires to the highest office, he/she opens the door to all these revelations about his/her private life. The fact

that this man lives a sentimental or unbridled sexual information is useful information for every citizen to secure his election in a democratic framework. On that front, the French legal system is quite liberal.

The attitude of journalists rests more on the formatting of the press. In France, it has become customary to say: "The

information stops at the bedroom door." The best example is the case of François Mitterrand's daughter whose existence was known the microcosm, but whom no journalist dared to mention, until Paris Match did with the tacit approval of the President. Yet this was legitimate information on the status of head of state, which the press could have reported earlier without much risk.

[/quote]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="just john "]

Even Ratko Mladic 'Butcher of Bosnia', who is accused of orchestrating the murders of 100,000 people, appeared today unhandcuffed . . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/serbia/8554907/Ratko-Mladic-in-court-the-whole-world-knows-who-I-am.html

[/quote]Different countries - Different  procedures[/quote]

Agreed!

Take out Srebrenica...no handcuffs!

Fondle an Air France Femme de Ménage de Cabine...handcuffs!

Post edited by the moderators. Please abide by the Forum Code of Conduct with regards to sexist or derogatory posts.

[pachapapa]

Perhaps not so leagle. More a case of media control in france being tighter than Berlusconi's fiefdom.

[5-element]

"Sortons l'homme des cavernes!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/03/france-women-sexism-strauss-kahn

[just john]

[quote user="5-element"]"Sortons l'homme des cavernes!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/03/france-women-sexism-strauss-kahn  [/quote]

Great news for French women if they realise that the ability to change the current French mindset is in their hands; the caption should read

''Let's get women out of their caves''

[Frenchie]

Honest to God, I feel men are men and French men are just the same as everywhere else.. !   Some good, some bad ..

Life ..

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

Honest to God, I feel men are men and French men are just the same as everywhere else.. !   Some good, some bad ..

Life ..

[/quote]Very true. But men are easily influenced by the prevailing culture with regards to morality and ethics.

[Gardener]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/joan-smith/joan-smith-say-au-revoir-to-the-cinq224sept-messieurs-2293176.html A very interesting read.

[cooperlola]

Always had a lot of time for Ms Smith.

[Tom]

From a story on BBC News:

The contrast between the two reporting cultures is proof of a general truth

about Britain and France: that in their systems of thought, behaviour and policy

they tend to define themselves by opposition to the other.

Thus defenders of France's restrictive media tradition say better this than

British muck-raking.

And defenders of the British model say better ours than DSK

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Tom"]

Thus defenders of France's restrictive media tradition say better this than British muck-raking.

And defenders of the British model say better ours than DSK

[/quote]Some sort of compromise between the two would be nice.

 

OK, but I'm allowed to dream, aren't I?[Www]

[Clair]

[quote user="just john "]Great news for French women if they realise that the ability to change the current French mindset is in their hands; the caption should read ''Let's get women out of their caves''[/quote]

Just John, I am saddened to read this flippant and dismissive comment.

I know there are women who don't object to being seen like a decorative accessory rather than a person in their own right, and women who feel flattered when they get sexual attention from men in a position of power, as if being single out for flirting by their male counterparts or superiors somehow validates them.

I also know there are many more women who simply want to do their job without being subjected to sexual innuendos, offers of advancement for sexual favours or flippant comments about their physical appearance or their clothing from men they depend on for their salary.

[Christine Animal]

[quote user="5-element"]

"Sortons l'homme des cavernes!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/03/france-women-sexism-strauss-kahn

[/quote]

In the above article:

"Then this week, the civil service minister, Georges Tron, was forced to resign from government after two women, emboldened by the Strauss-Kahn case, filed complaints for harassment, including inappropriate foot massages and groping."

You've got to be kidding.  How on earth at work do you get into the position of "inappropriate foot massages" against your will?!   [:P]

Maybe I'm no oil painting, but I have worked in Paris offices and for people in high positions for many years and have never suffered anything of the sort.  Any slight remark that could have been made just fell flat and that was it and I have always been treated with respect.  I really don't see how I could have got into foot massages without my consent.

If things are that bad, maybe a good squirt of one of those little spray thingies (lacrymogène gaz), easily kept in a pocket, would soon put them out of action.   [8-|]

 

[Clair]

During a debate on French TV (I can't remember which program, I have watched so many to try to understand all sides of this), some French politicain was absolutely besides himself, hopping made, outraged, at the idea that "at this rate, soon you won't be able to give a foot massage at the office"... [:D][:D]

[5-element]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]  I really don't see how I could have got into foot massages without my consent.   [8-|] [/quote]

George Tron's ex-cabinet manager (who is now corroborating the allegations of sexual harassment by the two women ex employees) explains how one of the two women "could have got into foot massages without her consent":

"Elle avait besoin de ce travail en mairie et avait un enfant à charge. Elle était vulnérable" 

("she needed that job in the mairie as she had a child to support. She was vulnerable")

 http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/affaire-tron-le-temoignage-a-charge-d-un-ex-directeur-de-cabinet-05-06-2011-1480994.php

 

 

 

[Christine Animal]

Still, 5E personally I wouldn't give in to that.  If you lose your job because of it, it should be known.  There are associations defending women and the Prud'homme.

 

[Chancer]

I have been incommunicado for a couple of weeks, not wanting to read through the additional 50 pages of postings that there are now, interesting though I am sure they would be, the last few pages seem to be pretty much what was written back then, opinions, counter opinions, the same posters linking to articles that support their view of the affair etc, a kind of groundhog day [:D]

Have there actually been any developments in the case that I have missed?

[5-element]

Tomorrow is the day Chancer, for new developments (perhaps) in the DSK affair per se.

What is new is that different articles are being written about the ramifications, consequences, triggered by this saga. Some people are quite open about the outcome of the court case, or not even care that much. But that won't stop them (myself included) posting links to interesting articles that might (or not) expand the collective consciousness. These are interesting times.[;-)]

[Russethouse]

 I think DSK is in court on Monday ?

Probably the only thing that seems to have changed is the tone of the discussion on French media.

Christine, I agree the woman should have not put up with it and taken action, but my guess is that she wondered who was going to feed her and her child while that was going on.

 I've recently seen a situation here where a couple co habiting for 12 - 15 years have come to the end of the road relationship wise. They have a son aged 12. They live in a housing association property which is in her name yet she has left both partner and son mainly because she was frightened to stay, fearful women lack the confidence to take what would seem to outsiders the correct or logical action in my experience.

[5-element]

Christine, you are absolutely right. I can't imagine letting this happen to me either, I would probably have made a lot of noise  and told the boss where to get off. But then again, I don't have a very submissive mentality, and mostly, I am not a single parent who is afraid of losing my job. Some women are more passive and fearful, afraid of displeasing the boss, afraid of the qu'en-dira-t-on if they speak up, etc... They would rather put up with it!

[idun]

[quote user="Christine Animal"][quote user="5-element"]

"Sortons l'homme des cavernes!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/03/france-women-sexism-strauss-kahn

[/quote]

In the above article:

"Then this week, the civil service minister, Georges Tron, was forced to resign from government after two women, emboldened by the Strauss-Kahn case, filed complaints for harassment, including inappropriate foot massages and groping."

You've got to be kidding.  How on earth at work do you get into the position of "inappropriate foot massages" against your will?!   [:P]

Maybe I'm no oil painting, but I have worked in Paris offices and for people in high positions for many years and have never suffered anything of the sort.  Any slight remark that could have been made just fell flat and that was it and I have always been treated with respect.  I really don't see how I could have got into foot massages without my consent.

If things are that bad, maybe a good squirt of one of those little spray thingies (lacrymogène gaz), easily kept in a pocket, would soon put them out of action.   [8-|]

 

[/quote]

 

Christine, because some of us send out the message that we are not for messing with. I was in the entertainment industry and there was a lot going on between many of the staff members including with the bosses. Never me, never ever did anyone make a remark that was untoward  to me either. I was always treat with respect and courtiously too. We had models working with us, and I was never in that league, but I was rather nice way back then, never the less. And it wasn't as if I was seeing anyone either and was up for a relationship, but of 'my' chosing and I met my now husband  soon after I started working there, but met him  well away from work.

[Christine Animal]

double post, sorry.

[Christine Animal]

[quote user="5-element"]

Christine, you are absolutely right. I can't imagine letting this happen to me either, I would probably have made a lot of noise  and told the boss where to get off. But then again, I don't have a very submissive mentality, and mostly, I am not a single parent who is afraid of losing my job. Some women are more passive and fearful, afraid of displeasing the boss, afraid of the qu'en-dira-t-on if they speak up, etc... They would rather put up with it!

[/quote]

Yes, I understand that fact.  But why come out with it now then?

 

Chancer here's the latest.

http://actu.orange.fr/politique/l-avocat-benjamin-brafman-predit-que-dsk-sera-relaxe_144028.html

 

[Chancer]

Thank you for that Christine [:)]

For all those of you that I have maligned, I should have used the phrase "interesting links" as no doubt they would have been had I had the inclination or time!

So maybe the initial affair will be swiftly settled tomorrow but I suspect the polemique will continue to run.

[just john]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="just john "]Great news for French women if they realise that the ability to change the current French mindset is in their hands; the caption should read ''Let's get women out of their caves''[/quote]
Just John, I am saddened to read this flippant and dismissive comment.
I know there are women who don't object to being seen like a decorative accessory rather than a person in their own right, and women who feel flattered when they get sexual attention from men in a position of power, as if being single out for flirting by their male counterparts or superiors somehow validates them.
I also know there are many more women who simply want to do their job without being subjected to sexual innuendos, offers of advancement for sexual favours or flippant comments about their physical appearance or their clothing from men they depend on for their salary.[/quote]

I'm sorry that's how you read my comments, I have no apology, because I mean't what I said, perhaps you might read previous comments (of mine) and understand that no woman should be prepared to accept the unacceptable, but if she doesn't speak out, who will know? who can act? how will the ferral men be brought to book; How else could these episodes be brought to an end? so I repeat ''Great news for French women, IF (or when) they realise that the ability to change the current French mindset is in their hands''