Hoddy Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I see from the Daily Mail and Le Monde that an investigation is going to be reopened because some of the perpetrators are still alive.Does anybody have any thoughts on whether it's right to pursue people who must be in their eighties by now ?Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="Hoddy"]Does anybody have any thoughts on whether it's right to pursue people who must be in their eighties by now ?Hoddy[/quote]Yes. I believe that people who have taken part in such acts must NEVER be allowed to think that they have got away with it, and that they should, no matter how long they live, always be looking over their shoulder in fear of arrest. And while they are at it, the authorities should be prosecuting those who knowingly helped these people to escape prosecution for so long - certain former German ambassadors to South American countries would be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyboop Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 not to sure... they are still alive, their victims arent, but the victims families could want to see justice.I would imagine if Jimmy Saville were alive, he would be facing an investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 So they may be in their 80s - they have had 60 years of freedom before facing justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="Hoddy"]Does anybody have any thoughts on whether it's right to pursue people who must be in their eighties by now ? Hoddy[/quote] Did they spare people who were in their 80's, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="Pickles"]Yes. I believe that people who have taken part in such acts must NEVER be allowed to think that they have got away with it, and that they should, no matter how long they live, always be looking over their shoulder in fear of arrest. And while they are at it, the authorities should be prosecuting those who knowingly helped these people to escape prosecution for so long - certain former German ambassadors to South American countries would be a good start.[/quote]Pickles, my sentiments precisely, except that you say it much better than I could have done.Unless you believe in a life after this one and that all the goodies and baddies are going to get what they deserve, then we only have this life-time in order to put things straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 [quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Hoddy"]Does anybody have any thoughts on whether it's right to pursue people who must be in their eighties by now ? Hoddy[/quote] Did they spare people who were in their 80's, then?[/quote]I don;t think they were noted for their kindness to old people. What they did was terrible. However given that they all must be at least 85 and those in authority even older I just wonder how many are actually still alive and even if they are alive and not senile will you be able to find any witnesses who can .reliably identify them as the perpetrators of these deeds. The war ended nearly 68 years ago and people change a lot in that time. Also memories become dimmed after such a time span. We have to deliver a higher standard of justice than they did or we are sinking to their level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't care whether they cart them to court on their death beds, they should pay for their crimes. What I am annoyed about is that this was not done years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 There was no respite for those killed, nor for their living relatives, I recently watched a program where relatives were visiting Poland, old men who watched their parents dragged away and had never forgotten but continued to search for news, even finding some small relative solace in a photograph of their parents suitcase found in a warehouse at Auschwitz and put on show at the Auschwitz Commemoration in Poland ! they are still living the hell, amongst others. And the perpetrators should be found and made to forfeit their freedom to enjoy what's left of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Yes its easy to say they should be prosecuted and punished but it is not easy to find proof that these are people responsible nearly 70 years later. The war was fought partly to ensure the rule of law continued rather than arbitary dictatorship. So we must not sink to their level just for the sake of revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex H Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"][I just wonder how many are actually still alive [/quote]6 - 3 in poor health, the others aged 85-86. It was reported in Le populaire yesterday (4 pages). Not so much info on the website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"]Yes its easy to say they should be prosecuted and punished but it is not easy to find proof that these are people responsible nearly 70 years later. The war was fought partly to ensure the rule of law continued rather than arbitary dictatorship. So we must not sink to their level just for the sake of revenge.[/quote]Yes, but from my reading of the situation, there has been evidence around for years. Only political expediency prevented these people from being brought to trial earlier. "Justice delayed is justice denied"?Last year I went to the excellent, recently-opened exhibition at the Nuremberg Trials Museum, which I found sobering, illuminating and instructive. The regime meticulously recorded all kinds of minutiae, quite a bit of which survives. Archives held in the former East Germany add to this. I read an article in last Sunday's Times (my excuse is that the in-laws bought it!) which showed what David Irving is up to these days. There are still apologists for the regime and its behaviour ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Where there is valid evidence then I agree that they should be prosecuted. I would not want to see a witch hunt but I agree that old age is not an excuse for avoiding prosecution. Where the waters get muddy is if they are too senile to understand what is going on. Hopefully when death catches up with them it will be an end to the Israeli government using the holocaust as an excuse for their tretment of the palestinians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"] Hopefully when death catches up with them it will be an end to the Israeli government using the holocaust as an excuse for their tretment of the palestinians[/quote] More chance of a Rabbi admitting he enjoyed a bacon sandwich for breakfast. [Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think that I must add, that most people I know in their 80's who have not lost their marbles, and even those that have, remember very well what happened 60 and 70 years ago. And participating in a massacre or organising it will surely have remained with them. I would imagine that because of what they did, they are not the sort of people to have an conscience about it.......... still, I would hope that they have lived with nightmares all their lives. And if they haven't, well, it is the time for the nightmares to start along with the justice process, the victims should get some sort of justice.I'm sure that this could have been done years ago, ofcourse the trouble is that France was occupied and we'll never know what everybody did during the war and who has what on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="NickP"][quote user="Rabbie"] Hopefully when death catches up with them it will be an end to the Israeli government using the holocaust as an excuse for their treatment of the palestinians[/quote] More chance of a Rabbi admitting he enjoyed a bacon sandwich for breakfast. [Www][/quote]Sad but true[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 "I'm sure that this could have been done years ago, of course the trouble is that France was occupied and we'll never know what everybody did during the war and who has what on others."IdunThat is it in a nutshell. Has anyone read Une jeuness au temps de la Shoah (Extraits d'Une Vie) by Simone Veil. It's well worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"]Hopefully when death catches up with them it will be an end to the Israeli government using the holocaust as an excuse for their tretment of the palestinians[/quote]Alas, Rabbie, I have visited Israel and I have to say that this statement of your has my complete and utter backing.As for France during the occupation, and I know I am again repeating myself on this Forum, I refer yet again to the TV series "Un village français" which tells about the German occupation and how the French, in their various ways, reacted and survived or got killed.There were programmes every year (in our real time) over the 5 years of the occupation and eye-witnesses who were still alive and gave their personal accounts.Can't remember now if last year was Year 5 or whether we get to see Year 5 this year. Trouble is, having only one TV, I often let OH watch what he wants as he has first refusal with the TV as I have with the piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanb Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 It's easy to get angry but I don't think it's a clear issue.A lot of innocent people were burned to death during WW2, including not only several hundred in Oradour but also tens of thousands in the incendiary bombing raids on Dresden and other cities. The people who did it were all obeying military orders in wartime. How, exactly, would you select those to be prosecuted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 [quote user="allanb"]It's easy to get angry but I don't think it's a clear issue. A lot of innocent people were burned to death during WW2, including not only several hundred in Oradour but also tens of thousands in the incendiary bombing raids on Dresden and other cities. The people who did it were all obeying military orders in wartime. How, exactly, would you select those to be prosecuted?[/quote]Allan you make it sound that only one side dropped incendiary bombs which was not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanb Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 PaulT wrote: "you make it sound that only one side dropped incendiary bombs…"I know that wasn't the case and I didn't mean to imply it. But my question is still valid, I think; if the crime is killing innocent people, how would you select the ones to be prosecuted for it? I believe that for most people the honest answer would be: it would depend on which country's uniform they were wearing at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I will never forget our visit to the memorial village of Oradour-sur-Glan. The point is that a lot of those responsible were Alsatian. They claimed that they had been drafted into the Waffen-SS against their will . They got off after having been convicted and it is said possibly for the sake of French unity. Would you also hold the French ministers at the time responsible for that? What part did De Gaulle play in this decision? Yes he insisted the ruined village be preserved but for what reason, what went on behind the scenes. Where does the buck stop? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane .......................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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