Urgent advice needed on mobile homes.

[monaco]

I am going to look at a mobile home park on Thursday, with the idea of buying a mobile home as a permanent home in France. I have been resident for five years and want to keep my residency.  They have told me that I can use the site as a permanent address . It is open for eleven months a year and I would spend Dec/Jan in the Uk with my daughters.  However, they have also told me that it must be considered a second home and I will have to use my daughter's address in the Uk as my princpal residence.  I can't see how that would satisfy my residency requirements.  I am also concerned about the payment of Taxe Fonciere and Taxe D'habitation - I know the owners of the site pay business rates to cover these and I would not object to paying them if necessary.  I will make an appointment with my friendly local Inspecteur des Impots before I sign anything, but I wonder if any contributors know the rules.

[Benjamin]

As far as I know you pay your ground rent and that's it but my knowledge is limited to essentially holiday sites which are open seven or eight months of the year.

You could try asking the site owners if there are any rules/agreements which make your tenure any different to what you have described.

As far as I know you can use the address as a permanent one and indeed the site owners are already saying that. It might be that they are a bit worried as to your "status" if you were to start thinking of it as your permanent home. I'm unsure what you mean by "residency requirements"?

I can't see what asking the local Impots will do for you except to involve them in something that they wouldn't normally have any interest in. It's not as if you're doing anything illegal or wrong so I'd just let sleeping dogs lie there.

You need to look carefully at the agreement that the site owners are offering especially in regards to how long you can have the mobile home you are considering buying on their site before they ask you to move it. Gone are the days here when 20 and 25 year old mobile homes were allowed. You'll probably find that ten years is now a maximum lifespan so you should plan to write off your investment over that timespan.

Best of luck.

[monaco]

Thank you, Benjamin.   I intend to live permanently in the mobile home, apart from  two to three months I will spend in the UK.

I have established myself as a resident of France, with a Carte Vitale, four years of Declaration des Impots, etc.  I have been renting for two years but now wish to buy a mobile home as my permanent residence.  I am now almost 67, so ten years or so would be enough - at the end of that time I would probably move in with one of my daughters, who wants to live in France anyway.  She is just waiting until all her children have left home.

[Benjamin]

Just as in the UK there are French people who live permanently in mobile homes, pay taxes and are affiliated to the State healthcare system so you should have no worries on that score.

[Panda]

Hi

It sounds like the site may have restrictions and that perhaps it can only be a second home not a main residence other wise why would they tell you to register somewhere else as a permanent home.  You may run in to problems if you can't say your main home is in France with health cover etc. as you are out of the UK system now.

This problem is rife in the UK where I lived, there are lots of 'parks' that can only legally be second homes, as they are second homes no council tax is paid and the authorities are coming down hard on the owners and residents as they only had licence to build second homes not principle residences.  I've not heard of this being the case here but from what you've said I would tread carefully.

Panda

[monaco]

Many thanks for your replies.  I must say warning bells rang when the agent told me it must be a second home, as I don't have any other home.  I will go and look anyway, because the site is in an area I particularly like visiting and it is a very cheap weekend, but I certainly won't be signing anything.  It is very hard to find these sites that can be used as permanent homes.

[Patf]

Someone in our village is trying to rent out long term a mobile home which looks like a little modern bungalow. They want 400 euros a month for it which sounds a lot. They bought it and placed it there originally for a MIL who passed away. Just thought you might find an independent one which isn't part of a holiday site. Pat.

[monaco]

Many thanks - that is a lot for a mobile home.  I actually want to be free of rent, so I am hoping to buy a mobile home outright - I would like to buy a piece of land which had a mobile home already sited, with electricity, water, etc. I think that would qualify as a permanent principal residence.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="monaco"]Many thanks - that is a lot for a mobile home.  I actually want to be free of rent, so I am hoping to buy a mobile home outright - I would like to buy a piece of land which had a mobile home already sited, with electricity, water, etc. I think that would qualify as a permanent principal residence.
[/quote]

My understanding ofthe rules suggest that this is all you can do - a "mobile home" park is restricted in any number of ways. However, what "residency" do you need to prove? Are you not a EU citizen? (Although your screen name may be a give-away... Is Monaco in the EU?)

 

[monaco]

Hello,Nick.  I am English, I just worked in Monaco for a time so I find it easy to remember.  Someone has suggested that as long as I have an address for the tax office, my insurance company, CPAM and so on, no-one will question my residency.  I can certainly prove by my bank statements that I have spent at least ten months a year in France for the last five years.

[Benjamin]

Monaco,

If you look in the Finance Section the rules for being fiscally resident seem to revolve around you paying tax where your bum is, in which case there is no question of where you are fiscally resident. I guess everything else e g healthcare, flows from that.

[monaco]

Many thanks, Benjamin.

[Gluestick]

Chucking my twopennorth (or if you like, deau sous) into the melting pot, I fear you must firstly be concerned about tenure.

One of my major lients used to manage static 'van sites in the South and it would seem that even here the site owners have permission to rent out part of the site for round the year occupation, there is no security of tenure.

One here I stayed a number of times was the premier local site and very sought after. The owners, however, were prima donas and ejedted owners on a whim. One pretext was older 'vans. They claimed it depreciated the site's prestige.

There were a number of full time residents there and I met quite a few. The core problem you would have, I feel is that of for whatever reason the site owners ask you to vacate, it may well be difficult if not impossible to find another residential site at an affordable cost.

Tread carefully!

P.S. the expected life of a static 'van is no more than 10 years.

 

[monaco]

The site I am thinking of is run by Siblu which seems to be a bona fide company.  I would, of course, read any contract very carefully. I used to be a conveyancer, so I am used to reading small print!   However, I will continue to try to find a house I can afford somewhere in the wilds of the Pyrenees.  I do prefer the thought of being sole owner of my own home/land.

Thank you to everybody who has kindly bothered to reply.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Chucking my twopennorth (or if you like, deau sous) into the melting pot, I fear you must firstly be concerned about tenure.

One of my major lients used to manage static 'van sites in the South and it would seem that even here the site owners have permission to rent out part of the site for round the year occupation, there is no security of tenure.

[/quote]

This is true of virtually every mobile home site/park in France whrther it is seasonal or open all year round. Don't ever expect to see an agreement giving the mobile home any particular "rights"

The agreement given to owners more or less covers their responsibilities to the site, the site owner and fellow residents. It never confers any degree of security of tenure.

This is exactly the position Monaco was coming from in her original posting where the owners were keen to point out that she couldn't consider it to be permanent. If they're willing to be that up front then she hopefully has a working basis for a good relationship with the owners.

[Benjamin]

I've just Googled Siblu and found it's the new trading name for Haven Europe so I'll backpedal a lot on what I've previously said and pass an opinion now that I know where you're going to look.

Haven Europe are a perfectly well established and respected business who have been selling holidays in ready erected tents and mobile homes as well as selling mobile homes for a number of years. It now looks as if they may have dropped the ready erected tent side of the business.

In previous postings I seem to recall you use the words peaceful and tranquil quite a lot when describing the sort of place you are looking for whether it be bricks and mortar or in this case a mobile home.

You will absolutely hate, and I mean that , to be on the type of site that Siblu/Haven are on. The main six or seven weeks of the high season will be almost unbearable for you due to the fact that the site will be packed full of holiday makers intent upon enjoying themselves for their annual holidays (and nothing whatsoever wrong in that).

There will also be other times in the letting season from mid May to mid September (don't forget these holidays are aimed primarily at the British and Irish markets) when you will be less than pleased with some of the people who nowadays take this sort of holiday.

This is what Haven do and very successfully too but I don't think the quieter times of the season can ever quite make up for the crowds that will be around in the main weeks.

Sorry to be so negative but I have personal experience having owned a mobile hime for many years in France.

[monaco]

Thanks, Benjamin.  The site I am interested in is in the midi-Pyrenees, well away from the coast and much smaller than most of the other Haven sites.  I t might attract families with children, but not groups of single young people.  There are going to be few facilities for holidaymakers and I think it will attract more of the hiking/biking types.  They have offered me a free three-night stay and I will ask a lot of questions at the presentation.  Incidentally, when they said it couldn't be used as a permanent home, I think they meant from the French authorities' point of view, rather than giving any indication as to tenure!

[Gluestick]

Becuase they became pretty experienced in siting statics, my clients of earlier used to complete many of the early season contracts for Haven (amongst others) for erecting the sites, putting in the temporary sewerage and wastes and electricity, as well as siting and connecting up all the 'vans.

My personal advice would be after various experiences with this growing business for 18 years or so,  seek out a site owned and operated by a resident French owner, who is seeking a simple life and reliable ongoing rents with minimal problems.

It seems time and again, grabbing site owners upset the local people and the Mayor issues stern warnings and matters change in various ways. As an example, one site in the south was so established, people built decking platforms, had small sheds and cultivated the ground around their 'vans into flower gardens!

Then the Mayor stepped in and all the sheds etc had to go!

The problem always seems to be that local people and government hate what they perceive a holiday area being insidiously converted to full time year round residences.

If you care to PM me, Monaco I would be pleased to put you in touch with my client as not only can they supply a new 'van, (and deliver and site it anywhere in Europe),  more importantly, they may well be able to recommend a viable residential site.

These days, they are main contractors to the Caravan Club of Great Britain.

 

 

[P]

Reliable, reputable companies running things is all well and good until they run in to financial difficulties, feel that profit levels are too low, wish to change to another direction. Then, the business is sold and the new owners might not be all that the old company was. They may wish to maximise profits by insisting that you have to buy a new van and pay exhorbitant siting fees etc.

What you see today [:D] might not be what you will see tomorrow [:(].

Paul

[monaco]

Paul, there must be tens of thousands of mobile homes in France - have you heard many tales of woe?   Do you have any positive suggestion  to make to me, or are you just saying that no-one should ever buy a mobile home?

[P]

[quote user="monaco"]Paul, there must be tens of thousands of mobile homes in France - have you heard many tales of woe?   Do you have any positive suggestion  to make to me, or are you just saying that no-one should ever buy a mobile home?
[/quote]

Monaco, I have not heard any tales of woe in France because I am not interested in. I have heard a few tales of woe in the UK when the ownership has changed hands - in fact, there was a case highlighted on the TV a couple of years back of a site in Kent where a father and son had bought it and then put the screws on the existing mobile home owners - i.e. you have to buy a new home from us and exhorbitant siting fees - and their methods were not very pleasant.

People who I know who had mobile homes only have them for a few years before they decide that they are a very expensive luxury. Close to home, my sister and brother-in-law were dead keen on buying a mobile home but decided not to when they a) worked out how much it was going to cost them (van with limited life as had to be changed at set intervals and rent) b) some of the small print in the agreement. But this applies to the UK, France might be different.

I am not saying that no one should buy a mobile home - just that things can change. Perhaps most times they will not be detrimental but in a few cases they might be.

The unexpected does happen - just as you experienced with your daughter. I believe in looking at the whole picture and that includes the different possibilities. My comments were meant to be constructive - i.e. things can change.

Paul

[Gluestick]

France is very different for a number of reasons.

Firstly, it enjoys a completely different legal system: the civil code in many ways is more sensible and pragmatic. In others it's very obtuse!

I know not how this might apply to long term site rentals for a residential 'van.

Additionally, a main difference is that metropolitan France is between 4 and 5 X the size of England.

Land is thus far cheaper and less competitive.

Further, the South of France is saturated with holiday sites for static 'vans. It has been a core aspect of French tourism for many years.

As an example the place I know best has a population in Winter of circa 20,000.

In mid Summer this rockets to 150,000!

Quite obviously, as I stated earlier, with any purchase commitment which relates to security of tenure and peace and tranquillity, one needs to be careful.

That was all.

 

[Panda]

Hi Monaco

One other thought that just occurred to me is the extremes of temperature in your chosen region and how comfortable a mobile home would be all year round.  I am in one right now so I can speak from experience, it's cold in winter and too hot in spring and summer.  Might be nice in Autumn but I hope I'm out of it by then as our house will be habitable. 

I took a camping trip to the Midi-Pyrenees last year in late April and it was 1 degree one morning and a bit of a shock, I live in the Poitou Charente area and when we left for the weekend it was a pleasant 16 degrees!  I also understand that the summer can be hot not to mention the snow fall levels in the depths of winter so you should think about your year round comfort as well as the legals on this.

Panda

[Gluestick]

A modern static has very good levels of insulation. Extra insulation for colder climates can be specified at the time of ordering. As can gas fired central heating, subsidiary gas fires and etc.

I would agree that in the middle of Summer in Southern France a static van can become very unpleasantly hot. However, aircon can be fitted. Since the volumetric capacity of a static is so small (compared to a house) it doesn't take very long to drop the temp.

That said, it is pretty important if aircon is planned to agree a residential site deal for electricity otherwise the cost could be crippling! (One area where site owners make much money is by charging over the top for electricity hook up).

A relative used to own the company which produced luxury tourers and which won the Van of the year award two or three years at the Caravan Show and most of his sales were export to Scandanavia; which is pretty cold!

 

[monaco]

I do appreciate all your thoughts and warnings and this weekend I found out some of the practicalities for myself.  I was offered a three-night stay, free, in a park in the midi-Pyrenees.  The location was superb, with a breath-taking view of the Pic du Midi.  There was a very limited range of caravans on offer  from the manufacturer, but the site was privately owned and run and I could have bought a van from anyone.  There was one pitch facing outwards on the perimeter of the site which could have been made very pleasant, with a small garden.  However, I was highly suspicious that the next field might be developed as another site - I could ask to see the cadastre and also the village plan to see if that field is zoned for tourism, etc.  However, I was completely put off by the cost of electricity.  The owner charges the same for every caravan, no matter how many occupants, and whatever appliances are used.  He offered to do me a special deal as a permanent resident, of 5.8 euros  A DAY (yes, you read that right) for Nov/Dec/Jan, with only 6 amps, and 9.3 euros a day for the rest of the year, with 12 amps.   When I asked why it was so expensive, he said it was to cover the washroom facilities, lauderette and camp lighting, but I would have though that the ground rent of 2,000 euros per annum would have covered that.  With 100 pitches, so a gross income of 200,000 euros, I think he is being greedy.  There is no way I am paying twice as much for electricity in a caravan as I paid in a draughty, three storey detached house in the Dordogne.

I had a lovely weekend, the weather was perfect and I did a lot of touring.  I have decided that I want to be nearer to Perpignan, so I am going to keep on searching for a very small property in an isolated, non-touristy area, in need of renovation.

P.S. I also found the caravan bedroom claustrophic!