Air conditioning units - where are they allowed to be positioned?

[joidevie]

Hello..

We've seen a house we'd like to buy in the South where village houses are often very close together. I also have a strong aversion to constant electrical noises like air con units..

What are the rules as to where a neighbour may position a unit? We spoke with the Mayor and he has clearly said that in his village (classé I believe..) they are not permitted on any facades facing outwards to any roads (or this tiny 'impasse' in this case) but could in theory be put in your own courtyard or wall facing into your own courtyard. This would, in effect, eliminate any risk from 3 of the 4 surrounding properties, but the house immediately next door has a very small courtyard right next door. In practice it would be completely insane for anyone to put one directly in their own small outside space (and we are prepared to take that gamble as it would truly be bizarre), but we are keen to arm ourselves with as much information should anyone try to argue that they may have a right to place one somewhere they simply wanted to. There are some I've seen that if I were the neighbour I would be up in arms over, but I suspect other neighbors may be too polite or simply not care about the noise at all..

Any information on positioning, noise nuisance, visibility from the street or on your rooftop (villages classé not) would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks indeed...

[Chancer]

[quote user="joidevie"]Hello..

This would, in effect, eliminate any risk from 3 of the 4 surrounding properties, but the house immediately next door has a very small courtyard right next door. In practice it would be completely insane for anyone to put one directly in their own small outside space (and we are prepared to take that gamble as it would truly be bizarre), That is where I have put mine!

 There are some I've seen that if I were the neighbour I would be up in arms over,

Lucky that we are not neighbours then, it works both ways!

[/quote]

I think the approach of your Maire is the one used in the main in France.

Most of my neighbours small outside spaces are filled with very large uncared for dogs wading knee deep in large dog poo and that bark 24/7, you would be very unlucky to hear an outside aircon unit over that racket, mine is virtually silent and does not disturb me nor my neighbours at all.

[Quillan]

The other thing to keep in mind is the installers requirements. The outside unit should not be in direct sunlight so a shaded area or north side of the house is best. It's also not be put in an area susceptible to high winds so a courtyard is probably the ideal place.

I don't think there is any law exactly, certainly in the French instructions that comes with the units there is no mention. What the mayor says you can or cannot do varies from village to village. In our village you couldn't put up 2nd floor verandas because the mayor wouldn't allow them regardless of if you got DDE permission or not. The way the villagers dealt with this was to simply change the mayor when it came to election time. So it depends on the current mayor and can change if he is replaced.

There is an artical which although its about installing an AC unit the guy talks about the noise it makes (9th paragraph down), the link is below.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=702257

 

[joidevie]

Hmm.. I sort of thought that the change of Mayor might come into it. At the moment the village is run extremely well by a very proactive leader, but this could of course ultimately change. I was rather hoping to hear that Batiments de France had a clearer directive about 'visibility' if this was in a classified part of the village..?

The small courtyard next door is shady, north facing and sheltered from the wind, potentially ideal for an a/c unit, and I'd be very upset if someone were to do it if I lived next door or opposite.. The rear width of the next door house could only measure 3m, and the yard may only be about 4m or 5m deep, so it would have to be placed very near a window and would be quite a prominent feature.. I'm also guessing that the ground floor will be the kitchen and the living space towards the front where the house becomes much wider..

This is all speculation of course, but would be of real concern should it end up happening..  :o(

[pachapapa]

The climataseur will be an external modification to your dwelling.

Accordingly a Déclaration Préalable will be required in accordance with the Simplified Planning Regs dated Oct 2007.

The DP will be revised by the DDE who will follow advice of Architect de Batiments; the A de B is now an advice and not an obligation written in stone as previously, nevertheless neither the DDE or the Maire are likely to not follow the Architect's recommendation.

Check following link to diagramatic explanation.

http://www.urbanisme.equipement.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/14._Fiche_parabole_cle57c1a2.pdf

Beware of noise it is classified as a bruit de comportement with no minimum dbA rating.

 

[Tricia]

If you are worried about noise, as others have said it seems that there are no statutory min. or max. noise nuisance levels in France.

Someone who is upset by noise can make a complaint under the french equivalent of health and safety regs. ie medical certificates to prove ill health, disturbed sleep etc.

This came up in a discussion on another forum.

[Quillan]

I hope I understand this correctly.

I thought the Architect de Batiments were involve if you lived within a 1km circle of an ancient monument (defined as such by Architect de Batiments). Are we now saying that this is the case Joidevie, you are in an area controlled by the Architect de Batiments?

The way I read the fiche is that if you come within such an area then you need to talk to the Mayor and apply for permission, if you don't then you can just add the unit. Having said that the French take little or no notice of them anyway. As an example we have a church and we are just within the 1Km. Most of the houses in the church square have white PVC windows and roller shutters. When the lady from A de B told us we could only put wooden windows and shutters in I pointed out the windows and shutters in the square and basically she didn't give a toss about them. I asked if she would be back to check on what we have done afterwards and she said no. You can't see our house from the church and the church from our house, when I pointed that out she said "Yes you can if you fly over in a plane". [:'(] The best bit is it's not actually the church it's whats in it so not only would you have to fly over but have xray eyes as well. [:@]

[pachapapa]

The distance is 500 metres not 1000 metres.

At bottom left of fiche is a note indicating that the Architect de Batiment de france may be involved.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Tricia"]If you are worried about noise, as others have said it seems that there are no statutory min. or max. noise nuisance levels in France.
Someone who is upset by noise can make a complaint under the french equivalent of health and safety regs. ie medical certificates to prove ill health, disturbed sleep etc.
This came up in a discussion on another forum.
[/quote]

Not strictly speaking correct noises from professional activities are controlled by Spectral Noise Measurement.

The noise from an air conditioner, dog ,music centre, farting or wolf whistling gnome in garden ,etc are "bruit de comportement" and as you note not covered by noise MEASUREMENT.

Always be careful that you are using the latest 2006 Decree which modified much of the previous legislation.

Décret no 2006-1099 du 31 août 2006 relatif à la lutte contre les bruits de voisinage

et modifiant le code de la santé publique.

Summary in french to peruse;

Les bruits de comportement

Les bruits désinvoltes ou agressifs pouvant provenir de chaînes hi-fi, d’aboiements, d’appareils électroménagers, de travaux de réparations, de pétards, etc., sont considérés comme des bruits de comportement. Contrairement au code pénal qui ne réprime que les « bruits ou tapages injurieux ou nocturnes », le code de la santé publique permet de sanctionner « les bruits portant atteinte à la tranquillité du voisinage ou à la santé de l’homme » à tout moment de la journée. Le constat d’une infraction ne nécessite pas de mesures acoustiques : l’agent chargé du contrôle effectue un constat « à l’oreille » et fonde son jugement sur les critères suivants : la durée, la répétition ou l’intensité du bruit.

[Quillan]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

The distance is 500 metres not 1000 metres.

At bottom left of fiche is a note indicating that the Architect de Batiment de france may be involved.

[/quote]

This must be a recent change (within the last 18 months 2 years) then because all the paperwork we had stated 1km. Can you point me to the webpage so I can print it off please as we wish to make some changes and this would save us a load of problems.

[joidevie]

The middle of the village is around 750m from the classified monument, and is very much run as "one of the most important Medieval villages" etc..  I'm also well aware of people ignoring all sorts of BdF rules - PVC, illegal terraces keenly hidden in roof spaces etc etc.. And then only if visible from the top of the church tower.. Or as the bird flies. I've heard it all as my last house was a mere 30m from the listed church!

I think I'm trying to get at a scenario of "look, you've put that thing up right outside my bedroom window, and if you don't take it down, I can insist..." etc... My French is excellent and I'm not afraid stand up for what would really bother me.. And pick up the pieces afterwards. Knowing where I stand in the worst case scenario is more what I'm hoping to establish..

[Chancer]

[quote user="joidevie"]
The small courtyard next door is shady, north facing and sheltered from the wind, potentially ideal for an a/c unit, and I'd be very upset if someone were to do it if I lived next door or opposite.. The rear width of the next door house could only measure 3m, and the yard may only be about 4m or 5m deep, so it would have to be placed very near a window and would be quite a prominent feature

[/quote]

Would this really be something that bothered you Joidevie?

After all to see it you have to be looking surely? I often see things on the visible facades of peoples house that I think are naff and that I would not do myself but I really cannot get excited about what goes on in neighbouring yards, the best of which look like Steptoe's yard.

The noise from my outside unit is minimal, far less than the ambient bruit of dogs, kids etc, I am sure that an inflatable swimming or paddling pool close to your boundary would cause you far more noise problems in summer, I mean of course the kids shreiking.

3 metre wide house and 5m deep yard sounds like you live in a terrace or Coron, in these conditions of close proximity (or promiscuity in French!) one has to learn to live and let live with ones neighbours.

Actually I do have a noise tester here so could give you the noise level of my outside unit if you wish, the plate shows the bruit of the outside unit being 50DBA which is very little, from outside it actually sounds quieter than the inside unit which is 37DBA maximum and in practice is quiter than a fan heater or my VMC.

Mind you I did have a neighbour in the UK complain about my VMC, he lives about 100m away but complained that he could hear the noise of the air being extracted when he walked down the public footpath behind my property.

 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="pachapapa"]

The distance is 500 metres not 1000 metres.

At bottom left of fiche is a note indicating that the Architect de Batiment de france may be involved.

[/quote]

This must be a recent change (within the last 18 months 2 years) then because all the paperwork we had stated 1km. Can you point me to the webpage so I can print it off please as we wish to make some changes and this would save us a load of problems.

[/quote]

Please find the 1913 Legislation  as ammended at the following webpage:

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074250&dateTexte=20100211

The interpretation of the co-visibility and the radius of 500 metres are explained in the following fiche:

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/infos-pratiques/fiches/fiche11.htm

There are now provisions for a PLU to propose a reduction in the 500 metre radius or indeed a variable distance to a planning zone.

There is also a provision in the law for the radius of servitude to be increased; this is very unusual and requires the special and specific approval of the Conseil d'Etat.

Your case is the first time I have come across a radius distance greater than the legally stipulated 500 metres; I am exceedingly curious and would be grateful in learning why in the case of your house the Conseil d' Etat gave such approval.

[Quillan]

Well the house was built in 1983 so I don't know what the law was back then.

What we applied for was to build cabins in the garden. As in the case of our neighbours as well we were told by the DDE that the plans had to be inspected and permission granted by A de B because we were within 1km of the church (with the tapestry which is the actual thing thats protected). I took my plans to Carcassonne myself (thought it might save some time) which is how I managed to speak to the lady there, it added about another 6 weeks on to the time we had to wait for permission, in the case of our neighbour it added 3 months as there was a backlog. Now there are two things in the links you have given that are of interest to me as we are planning on building more cabins. The first is the 500M bit (we are just over 900M away from the church) and the bit about 'view' which I take to be in my case that if you stand by the tapestry you should not be able to see my house which is bloody obvious really coz the church wall is in the way. The only alternative objection could be if you stood outside the church you should not be able to view my property and the other way round.

So I propose to submit the plans with a copy of the two documents you gave in the links (thanks by the way) and tell them to read them and that my plans have got nothing to do with the A de B.

Thanks for you help.

[joidevie]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="joidevie"]

The small courtyard next door is shady, north facing and sheltered from the wind, potentially ideal for an a/c unit, and I'd be very upset if someone were to do it if I lived next door or opposite.. The rear width of the next door house could only measure 3m, and the yard may only be about 4m or 5m deep, so it would have to be placed very near a window and would be quite a prominent feature

[/quote]

Would this really be something that bothered you Joidevie?

After all to see it you have to be looking surely?[/quote]

The rear of the house would face into a tight "impasse" of village houses where sounds can bounce and amplify.. So it's more about the ambient noise than the appearance.. I've had a previous bad experience, hence my caution.

Human noises bother me less, but a busy wine cave cooperative processing grapes would... So I'm trying to minimise the risk.. But sure, the perfect house won't exist and I'm keen to live in a living village.

Any more 'technical' detail or clarity on planning regards this issue would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks so far for all the helpful input.

[Polly]

Having read the various posts I have just one piece of advice: don't buy a house in the middle of a village if noise bothers you.

Quite honestly in practical and legal terms you will have no effective control over the noises your neighbours and/or their machinery make. Yes, there may well be legal paths to follow, but whether these will bring you satisfactory results within a reasonable time, or at reasonable cost, is doubtful.