Making the move to France

[countrygrooms]

Hi, we are looking to relocate from Hampshire, UK to France- likely the Limousin region- within the next year or so.

I am aware vaguely of what we need to plan ahead with personally (i.e schools, passports, driving licences, medical insurance and so on) and with regards to buying a property as i have done considerable internet research but finding it difficult to get accurate advice about 'living in' france and making the initial transition- becoming a citizen as it were.

However i am trying to find out what should be the priority things we have to consider before making the move and starting a property search.

It is likely we will buy a property to renovate over a period of months and then move over permenantly when completed.

Basic situation is i am 25, my husband is 34, sons will be approx 2 and 7 when we move. We intend to renovate a building with potential for B&B or holiday rental (in a seperate gite or renovated barn) so not looking to work.

I know there is lots to consider but i am finding it difficult to work out what is deemed to be most important so if anyone can point me in the right direction, or point out good websites or good reading which can help us along a little further this would be much appreciated.

Many thanks

[KathyF]

We are in a quite different situation from you (retired, second-home owners) but I know that realistically you will not make anywhere near enough enough from a single gite to keep a family on.  Think gite conmplex with several properties or a good-sized B&B in a popular area, and even many of these are struggling at the moment with the economic downturn and subsequent drop in bookings.

A really useful place to look for information from people in the business is

: http://www.laymyhat.com/forum/

[Bugsy]

To add to what Kathy has said, the "We want to move to France and set up a Gite/B&B dream" has turned into a nightmare for many. People buy a property, spend thousands renovating barns into accomodation and then struggle to get the regular stream of bookings needed to make sufficient money to survive.

Having the buildings/accomodation is simply not enough. There are literally thousands out there.

My advice, and I'm no expert,  would be to do your homework and specialise.

It could be the spectacular location, or that you offer something different to target a specific market, a watercolour painting holiday, localised cooking courses, fishing holidays, etc, etc.

.

[AnOther]

Two things you can strike of your list for starters, passport and driving licence, for as long as they remain valid both are fully acceptable in France.

I think there is possibly some prejudgement going on though because for all we know you might be lottery millionaires for whom money is no real object, you certainly seem to make light of that aspect, but otherwise I agree with what others have said, many folk here with no other commitments or obligations, such as kids and private health care costs etc., are struggling just to survive on a pension or savings and/or income from Gites or B&B.

[Quillan]

I have had a browse through all your posts and you seem to be asking the right type of questions.

The best tip I can give you is don't buy initially just rent and for a whole year and in the area in which you plan to live. You will then get a 'taste' of what you are going to be letting yourself in for. Your oldest child can be placed in to a French school and you can see how he/she copes. Don't forget it will be very beneficial if he/he starts French lessons asap as there will be little if no language help given to them in France. They will basically be put in a French class and left to get on with it. Having said that in areas where there are large groups of English children some schools run French class's outside of normal class time but you should not take that for granted. Most villages have 'primary' schools if not there is usually a school bus. Schools start earlier than the UK and finish earlier, something you need to take in to account if wither or both of you work.

With health care you will need an E106 to get you started, you can get this if either you or your husband has been paying a Class 1 NI stamp contiguously for the last 2 years in the UK. The E106 will last for anywhere up to 2 years after which time you will either have to work and pay the French equivalent of NI (commonly called cotistations) or get private health cover. Both of these will be quite expensive compared to the UK and if you are self employed then they can be very, very expensive. So if you plan to buy and renovated then you basically have 2 years to do it before one or both have to start work.

If you want to run a B&B and/or Gites then the golden rule is don't borrow any money. The income from these will not be enough to live on let alone repay any loans. Basically you will be working for somebody else if you do borrow money as all your income will go to pay the loan.

Likewise, as I said, running either or both won't give you enough income to live in France so you will need a secondary income. France is no longer a cheap country in which to live. The problem is that France has higher unemployment than the UK in most areas, especially rural ones. Therefore being somewhat protectionist the jobs will always go to a French person irregardless of if you are better qualified  or not. Another thing you need to take in to account is that you really do have to speak excellent French, school French is just not good enough if you intend to enter the French job market. I have seen many Brits learn this the hard way.

There is loads more I and others can tell you but the bottom line is you need to get over here and see how you get on and renting is the best way so if you fail, your children can't cope, you can't cope etc at least you have not burnt your bridges.

Good luck.

 

[Iceni]

There are only 2 significant things to worry about when you move to France - income and in a related way EUR/GBP exchange rates. Over the past 8 years the rate has gone from 1.50+ down to 1.00 and currently the dead cat has bounced to 1.10. The future ? Who knows but we may long for parity.

Expenditure - some costs are higher here, some the same and some cheaper. Overall, budget for the same as UK but allow a contingency of at least 10%.

Based on my 7 years here France is a great place for retired old farts with capital, who enjoy gardening but tough for anyuone who has to earn a living hence my comment about the things to worry about.

John 

[Sprogster]

countrygrooms, I can only elaborate what the other posters have said, in that the dream of moving to France and living of rental income from a Gite or B&B, is not an economic model that is generally sustainable in the long term, unless you have other source income.

The attraction of Limousin to Brits in the main is cheap property, but that is because this is the most underpopulated rural region of France, and younger French people have had to move out to find jobs themselves.

As another poster succinctly put it, most of us on this and other similar expat French forums are retired old f***s, or second home owners. Therefore, try before you buy, by renting and living there for a year first, which you can do with children at the young age yours are, without risk damaging their education. Either way you will enjoy the adventure, even if you decide upon reflection that at the age of 24, the Limousin is too cut off from civilisation for you!

Last but not least health care is also a big issue, as unlike Brit retirees who are covered by their E121's, whereby the UK cover their health costs in France, you will have no such luxury and will require expensive private health insurance after your E106 runs out, to be legally resident in France.

[countrygrooms]

Thanks you everyone for your hoenst and useful replies.

I now that the whole buying a french property and renting a gite is a long told 'dream' of people moving over. Luckily my husband and i have good business heads and have already considered the 'niche' market options and ways to make the best imcome possible from such a business.

Plus my husband is a landscaper and i am a qualified riding instructor/ groom so although neither of us want to be 'employed' we do have strings to our bow that can be put to use to increase our income (I.e i currently buy and produce horses, selling them on for profit- not sure what the requirement for nags is in Limousin but potentially something along these lines could also be continued).

I have thororughly researched the Limousin region and know it is very rural and quiet. Yes, the cheap properties are attractive, but to us also the area seems to suit us as we are somewhat old before our time- get on much better with older people (i.e retired old farts haha!) than people our own age.

We are not into going out clubbing and partying and our idea of a good time is a nice walk and nice food- something it would seem more than available in France!

With regards to finances we are not millionaires (sadly) but my husband runs his own business here so the plan in between now and the move to use this income to save as much as possible, pay off all of our debts and the intention to move to france 'debt and mortgage free' to the best of our abilities.

The other possibility would be for my husband to retain his or another similar business over here in the UK to add to our income but i am not sure if the logistics and commitment back in the uk would be what we wanted long term.

I do agree renting would be an idea as although we like Limousin it is a big region and i am unsure exactly of where we would want to be. It is a toss up between finding the right property in the wrong area or vice versa.

[Quillan]

The one thing I have learnt just by stepping back and watching is that there have been loads of Brits who believe they have a 'niche' market when quite often its already been thought of and tried out. Be aware that because a certain area does not have anything to offer for a particular niche market it does not mean nobody has ever tried. Mostly I find somebody has tried but it didn't work. This is a very good example as to why renting first is such a good idea, gives you the chance to find out on the ground if it has been tried before and why/if it failed. It could be because either the person got it wrong or because there is no demand.

The French on the whole tend to do their own landscaping mainly because they just don't have the money. Most French people in rural France grow more veg as opposed to having nice landscaped gardens.

You could try a riding school but then the only one around here is for pony trekking and only open in season. Unfortunately they had to rely on holiday trade even though they are French and it just didn't make any money. Again this differs from one department to another and my comment about renting first also applies.

I don't want to sound totally negative but you really need to do some better research and the only way is to come and try but don't burn your bridges.

Setting up a business in France can be full of pitfalls, its not as easy as in the UK and you could find yourself paying out more in cotistations than you earn at certain times of the year.

[Wilko]

We moved to Provence 7 years ago having bought a ruin. It took 2 year for the refurbishments and then we opened our B&B. For the past 5 years we have lived very comfortably from the income. I think that the two biggest pitfalls for yourselves are location and under capitalisation. IMO the best places in France to start a B&B biz would be:Cote d'Azur, western Provence or Paris. A B&B will thrive if you are in an international tourist area, my guess is that you will not survive in the Limousin. If you have the funds you should look at buying an existing B&B business.

Good luck

Wilko

www.maspomona.com

[Rose]

[quote user="Wilko"]We moved to Provence 7 years ago having bought a ruin. It took 2 year for the refurbishments and then we opened our B&B. [/quote]

Wow... just taken a peep at your website... your home is amazing!

[Rose]

oooppps I must not double click!

[Sprogster]

Wilko, you are correct if you are talking about very expensive exclusive areas of France, where you can charge accordingly. That said I don't think you could do now what you did seven years ago, as house prices in these areas have doubled over that time and the beautifully located abandoned Provencal Mas that required renovation have all been snapped up long ago by international buyers. Your property looks marvellous, but even in the current market is probably worth north of a million and therefore out of most peoples league.

[Sprogster]

countrygrooms, another reason for renting before you buy is that the costs of buying a house in France are far higher than the UK and you need to budget around 10% of the purchase price. Therefore, if you decide you want to move elsewhere in France or back to the UK after a short spell, the costs would be significant.

Even in the good times houses in France, especially in rural areas, can take a long time to sell and there are many stories on this and other similar forums of Brits moving back to the UK, but struggling to sell their French property.

[Wilko]

Wow thanks a lot Rose.........feel free to make a reservation.

Rgds Wilko

[Wilko]

Sprogster

Point taken. I was only trying to point out to the OP to beware a location in the stix. It will end up in tears also we had no children on board being mediumly old farts........they've flown the nest. Though we are regarded as "useful parents" as it is a great place for a free holiday, thank god we only had two.

Originally we were determined to open on the Coted'Azur but prices were prohibitive and many of the original properties were demolished years ago for what is now, in many places, urban villa sprawl.

It is still possible to find a ruined Mas here in the Luberon and some are at the right price. I think i could still buy and refurbish for similar money but I speak better French, have contacts in the building trade and have a greater understanding of the way the French like to do things.

Regards

Wilko

[Sprogster]

Wilko, you made the right choice as down on the coast the traffic is horrendous in season, and out of season everything shuts down and most houses are unoccuppied. House prices are also stratospheric as a property like yours in Ramatuelle would cost millions. We chose the other way around, but in hind sight now prefer the Luberon!

[Georgemiller]

Planning ahead is key to making your move to France go smoothly.

There are a number of organisations, websites and guides set up to help

make your move easier, so by getting involved and doing your research,

you will be able to avoid many of the pitfalls that new expats face.

There are many benefits to a life in France, including improved

weather, a less commercial culture and an appreciation of family and

friends, but it is not all perfect. In order for your move to be a

success, you need to research the good parts and the bad parts, or you

will get a nasty shock when you arrive.

[zarathustra]

Please, please do your homework... No reason why you can't make it work, but the area in which you wish to move will not draw in lots of tourists, and the winter's will probably be long, cold and give you virtually nothing in terms of income. I say this as someone in a similar boat... I'm looking to move to a similar region of France (not one that's very popular with British tourists), but know full well a B&B /Gite business will probably only pay out 5 or 6 thousand net profit in a year - certainly not enough to live on. I've stayed in a number of B&B's throughout France, and have always spoken to the owners who say they cannot live on their B&B alone. They also speak about the huge competition out there with other French B&B owners (one or two mention how many British and Dutch people have bought in their area and are also creating increased competition)

I also know my region of interest will be completely dead in the winter, unless I can afford to buy close enough to a ski station. Although we currently live in a French property (1 baby, and perhaps another to come) without a mortgage which we can rent for a good price, can put down a 40 or 50% deposit on a place we'd like to buy, and knowing that I work for myself and can make a fairly average French salary without reliance on a B&B business, I am still approaching it with apprehension and caution, and believe it will be challenging work.

[zarathustra]

[quote user="Wilko"]We moved to Provence 7 years ago having bought a ruin. It took 2 year for the refurbishments and then we opened our B&B. For the past 5 years we have lived very comfortably from the income. I think that the two biggest pitfalls for yourselves are location and under capitalisation. IMO the best places in France to start a B&B biz would be:Cote d'Azur, western Provence or Paris. A B&B will thrive if you are in an international tourist area, my guess is that you will not survive in the Limousin. If you have the funds you should look at buying an existing B&B business.

Good luck

Wilko

www.maspomona.com[/quote]

Beautiful place - I can see why you can make a good living from it. Sorry for pointing it out, but I couldn't help noticing the spelling of 'testemonials' on your website.

[Wilko]

Zara thanks for that........I'm sure there are probably others mais c'est la vie.

W

[zarathustra]

No problem, hope you didn't think I was being pedantic, because I spell badly all the time, and have lots of errors on my websites!

Love the photographs. I think I could live in that swimming pool. :)

[Wilko]

Not at all.............as I said thanks a lot. We are just trying to sort the pool as I type, then connect up the solar matt, it still cold here with diabolical forecast for the next couple of days so I don't think we'll have many swimmers. I do use the pool a great deal in the summer, usually before the guests get up.

W

[zarathustra]

I daresay it's more pleasant than Paris which is rather drab today. All the best with the pool and here's to a warm and prosperous spring/summer.

[Wilko]

Vous la meme

W