still undecided which way to vote in the Brexit referendum?

[mint]

This might help.  It did me.

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03thss8[/url]

[Rabbie]

With still 46 days left to Polling day I am sure we will all be given lots of advice on how to vote. Some of us already know how we will vote and are unlikely to change our minds in the interval. Some however will decide on what is said in the rest  of the campaign.

Hopefully now the local elections are over in the UK there will be some intelligent discussions of the pros and cons of this issue

[woolybanana]

I chatted to a British couple in the supermarket couple yesterday, to find out their views on Brexit (and to try and discover if they were pleased with the car they were driving); I am sorry to say that the arguements they put forward boiled down to them-and us-racism and the rehashing of old myths.

My point being that there is little chance of a decent debate when pure prejudice dictates the content.

[mint]

Hand on heart, I was an "undecided" until this morning.

Now it appears to me that this is an issue too important to be decided by a mere referendum[:D]

Wools, I have replied to your PM though there is nothing new in it that you wouldn't know already!

[idun]

 I have heard several discussions about the security aspect and how vunerable we would be 'out'. This simply doesn't make sense to me.

We will still be members of Interpol and NATO and on the security council of the UN.

Surely those involved with risk and terrorism should always share information / data about security risks? It would be stupid not to.

What I would like to hear is how the EU will reform no matter whether we go or stay.

Poland has big problems at the moment, and they said last night that it could put their membership of the EU at risk. Hungary seems to be ignoring press freedoms.

And the money................. where does it go, their site says everything is open and above board........... and personally I do not believe them, bit like MP's expenses, they make the rules and things may be 'legal' but are 'morally' wrong.

The great EU, needs to put it's house in order even if we stay.

[mint]

But, id, he explained it all, concisely and in terms that are easily understood!

 

Nevermind, I am PMing you later though not entirely about this subject.....

[Rabbie]

Idun, for once we can agree on something in this debate. Yes there is a need for EU reform but the UK will not have any influence on that if we leave.

There has been quite a lot of talk from the Brexiteers about how undemocratic the EU is but this seems to ignore the fact that the EU parliament is elected on a fairer system than the UK parliament. If you doubt this just see how many MEPs UKIP have compared to the number they have at Westminster. Yes some decisions do not go the way the UK would like but that is inevitable with democracy or any other system of government.

[idun]

mint, I listened.

And was not impressed.......

Very unimpressed that even these days, difficulties were being made for other countries.

And do 5 & 6 talk to one another? or do I read too much LeCarre? which may be the case, but I am still wondering if they do.

I have no idea what the EU MP's do...... I would hope that the gravy train is much reduced and would love to see current figures. So what do they really do, especially IF important decisions are down to PM's, Chancellors and Presidents? And if it is deciding that we have to have straight bananas, or the butter mountain, they may be a democratic body, but do we need them?

They were talking on Radio 4 the other day about Cameron's negociations and said that a team of civil servants had been the advanced party, well before he turned went to the table, the inference being that he knew what he was going to be offered, which was not a lot, maybe he should not have gone?

My views can easily be at odds with my family and friends as well as the people on here. And for once, I have yet to decide how to vote, being suspicious of something is one thing, but the alternative will be quite a different kettle of fish.

[Rabbie]

Why are people still perpetuating the discredited euromyth about straight bananas? The EU makes a convenient scapegoat for these stories which have no foundation in fact. A friend of mine who was an MP was shocked when he was first in parliament to find that an EU directive on one sheet of A4 was expanded into forty pages of UK legislation most of which was not needed by the EU directive but suited the government of the day to justify on those grounds.

It is standard practice for any international agreement to be worked on by civil servants with Ministers only involved at the final stages. If we vote to leave then the majority of the negotiations will be carried out by officials on both sides. The same will apply as we negotiate trade agrements with other countries. That's just the way government works.

As I understand it EU directives now have to be approved by the European Parliament before they come into effect

[idun]

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994R2257:EN:HTML

No wonder it was called what it was called.

And so many EU directives are put through the UK parliament too quickly where as in France and Germany they are not, or go through in another version much later.

Talking to a friend recently, whose business dealings are with the UK, France and Germany and they said that it often did not feel like the same rules were in place.

[andyh4]

That then Idun is clearly a problem with the UK legislature and not the EU.

For someone who was outside the UK for the length of time that you were, I am astonished by your lack of knowledge and understanding of European functions.

You don't know what an MEP does; why not? You have had plenty of opportunity to vote for one, and you should surely have understood what you might have been voting for, even if you then decided not to vote.

[Rabbie]

I feel that any one who thinks that Brexit is a good idea should look at the people who think it is a good idea. people like Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, George Galloway, Nigel Farage etc.

Now they may be political heroes to some people but I doubt if many people who admire DT also admire GG or vice versa.

 

Michael Gove today said the UK should leave the single market. This seems to eliminate the Norway/Switzerland option. When will they decide what they really want if we leave. We have a right to know what is proposed if we support the Brexit option. In the  debate about the Scottish referendum I stated I would not vote for  a "pig in a poke". The same applies here

[idun]

andyh4, ofcourse I had looked at MEP's roles, and I still do not know what they do. Because in reality most of the things they are supposed to do, should be done by our own governments anyway, I admit there is the odd thing that covers the EU, but we could have agreements about those things anyway.

A couple of things........... BBC's Watchdog program has in the last couple of years highlighted some consumer issues, that have ended up being taken up in France at least, because the same things were happening in France, because I saw that the french had had to do something about them on french tv, and they cited Watchdog, not the EU.

And a british government problem....... well, that could well be, but just look at the french government and the way they have ignored or simply interpreted things in their own sweet way....... notably....... too many things mentioned on this very board..........people not wanting to pay the various charges that french people living in France have to pay, or dealing with health care in ways that have not suited posters on here.

Would that it worked and everything was crystal clear, but dog knows that all those over paid civil servants and even politicans never do their jobs thoroughly, they never look to see if there is a hole in their cunning plans, are they capable of joined up thinking? Doubt it!

I could not run my home like these guignols run the EU.

The older I get, the more I loathe and detest politicans and the more layers involved, the less likely things are to be done well.

[Rabbie]

If you really want to know what the role of an MEP is then you should google it. It may be useful to look for "Powers of the European Parliament".

[idun]

As I said, I have read what they do....... I just do not know why they are there for most of their roles....... just another expensive layer as far as I am concerned.

And without a thought......politicians love throwing 'our' money away and that should be a treasonable offence.