French nationality anyone?

[letrangere]

Didn't want to hijack the EU constitution thread but the subject of being able to vote came up and started me thinking.  You live there permanently, you pay tax, so why not exercise your right to vote?  OK, for the major events you need to be a French national, so why not apply for a passport if you're eligible?  After all, you can still keep your British one (oh for the days when they were hard covered and blue), so it's the best of both worlds really, don't you think?  M

[Miki]

M,

I am not sure if it is that simple is it ? French passports aren't they for Nationals or those that wish to take up citizenship ? I stand to be corrected on this, as I have never really looked in to it.

The problem I believe is two fold;

1. One requirement for "passing" is well spoken French, therefore the percentage of those able to gain citizenship would be massively reduced.

2. As I said before, I sincerely believe it would be a grey area, to have as the criteria for voting on all the elections the French themselves are allowed to vote in, those immigrants that are paying tax, again that would rule out quite a number of folks. More importantly perhaps, the average stay for many these days is anything from a few months to a few years, with a small minority staying on longer. So for the sake of a minority to have a say in what is in reality (for the greater part) a French matter and I include general elections etc, is it morally acceptable, that many without any history of France and its raison d'etre to have a say in what happens here ?

If one wants to live here and pay tax, well fair enough but I personally don't think it should therefore buy one a vote. What, for instance if that person is only here for a one year contract ? I guess rules could be made but going by how many Brits vote these days in the UK anyway, well................

So perhaps it is hypocritical of me to want to vote in the municipal elections, well for me, it is to keep that rascal they call M (Mme) le Maire on their toes !!

[Mistral]

Reading your post, it sounds so logical and straight forward, and that's how I thought it would be. But in fact, it was more emotional that I had imagined.

I know that you can ask for French nationality after, what, 5 year residancy or 2 years mariage, but I waited a lot longer than that. I needed to be sure that it was a declaration of intent I was prepared to make. The day I handed in the paperwork, I felt quite strange.

This all sounds stupid: by becoming french I don't lose any of my British nationality (and as a russian friend once said "it's not what's on the piece of paper, but what's in your heart") But it was still a bigger deal than I had imagined.

Apart from being able to vote, join the army or work for the impôts, being french hasn't changed much in my life. It's still a long, moderately complicated process which asked for paparework right left and centre (for goodness sake, did they really need my parents' and in-laws' birth and wedding certificates?) and several trips to the Tribunal. This is another reason why it took me so long to decide.

And yes, I applied for the reasons you quoted. I payed taxes, but couldn't vote for the people who spent them, I work for a french ministry, but don't vote for the minister.

[letrangere]

(and as a russian friend once said "it's not what's on the piece of paper, but what's in your heart")

People often say to me, "You can take the girl out of England, but never England out of the girl."  I usually take it, perhaps wrongly, as an insult.  Still...

On the subject of French gaining nationality, does it cost much, ie exam fees, services of a lawyer, etc?  I know this is one criticism of the US system, it costs around $7,000 apparently.  And what does the test involve? 

M

[Mistral]

No, it's technically free. The whole thing probably cost me around £30. The only things you have to pay for are photocopies (did mine at school) a recent UK birth certificate, the translation of the birth cert and stamps. All the french paperwork is free and there's no need for a lawyer (didn't even cross my mind)

There are no exam fees, you have two interviews; one with the judge who checks that it's really you and you really want to become french and you sign everything. And another with the police who are supposed to fill in the "integration" form-they have a selection of language competance levels to fill in and then ask about whether you've tried to learn the language in france and whether you associate with french people. I've heard that people applying outside of france usually have lessopns at the alliance française as this can count in their favour. Between the two interviews, I think the police is supposed to check you out. I don't think they bothered that much for me, but I'm in a small town, I've heard that in bigger towns with a lot of immigration they can be much more invasive.

Having watched too many american films I was prepared for the FBI style interrogation to check we were really married (I almost went and checked what colour TOH's toothbrush was) but they even said he didn't have to bother coming in with me.

[Iceni]

I have always considered myself English not British/UK and since that was eroded by devolution being given to the tinies do not have any strong ties with the country in which I was born. As for voting, "first past the post" ensures that a minority govt gets in, my vote never made a difference anywhere so about 10/15 years ago joined the apathy party.

But is it any different here and would I apply for Frogship ? Only if it became necessary to carry on living in my new country e.g. the Tories realise that promising to pull out would get them elected or Le Pen gets the power to throw me out - either of which could brand me an unwanted alien. 

Others may not think these are not good reasons but I suspect the views are shared (privately) by many and for now at least I am allowed freedom of thought.

John

not

[Clarkkent]

 As for voting, "first past the post" ensures that a minority govt gets in, my vote never made a difference anywhere so about 10/15 years ago joined the apathy party.

I hope that you are not suggesting that France is more acceptable because it is somehow more democratic. In 1992, the French managed to get themselves a president who obtained only 19.2% of the popular vote. Out of 28.5m electors only 5.6m voted for Chirac.

The electorate were then forced to vote in a beauty contest between two contestants each of whom had already been rejected by over 80% of the people that had voted in the first round. It would seem that Jacques Chirac comes a poor second to Tony Blair in the legitimacy stakes!

I suppose that being a French citizen must bring its own frustations to the business of democracy.