Carpenter Bees

[WJT]

Just noticed damage on all of our old beams between windows have been damaged by Carpenter bees after seeing bees using the holes yesterday. I wasn't aware that they cause so much damage.[:(] I just did a search and the bees I see using the holes at the moment don't look like carpenter bees but I have seen a few occasionally flying around that do. [8-)]

Does anyone know the best product to use to get rid of them?

[chris pp]

""I wasn't aware that they cause so much damage""

They don't. None of the bees that use existing holes actually open them up or dig them in undamaged wood. The different types of mason bees simply use an existing hole to lay their eggs in and then seal it. The Carpenter bee, Xylocopa violacea, only uses existing holes and then creates galleries deeper in the wood, but this would need to be damp or damaged wood.

Photos?

Chris

[WJT]

Chris, I have holes just like this in these beams with the bees.

http://www.getridofthings.com/get-rid-of-carpenter-bees.htm

[chris pp]

Yes, but that is the American Carpenter Bee and is not the same as the European Carpenter Bee, they are actually quite different in behaviour. 

Perhaps you could describe the situation in more detail, (photos would be good). What are you actually seeing? What and how old is the wood? Were there holes there before?

Chris

[WJT]

 The beams are very old oak beams between windows and the holes weren't there before. There are many small woodworm holes that have been there but these large holes are new. Sadly, we have Capricorne in the house so I am very familiar with what a Capricorne exit hole looks like. These are more round like the holes shown in the photo of the link. I will try to take a photo tomorrow. Thank you.

[WJT]

Finally able to post some photos of the beams today.

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010014-1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010015-1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010017-1.jpg[/IMG]

 

[WJT]

Am I the only one with a Carpenter bee problem?[8-)]

[Araucaria]

You're not the only one. Ones like this one were making quite a mess of an old solid-walnut cupboard.

[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/carpenter.jpg[/IMG]

They did seem to be digging the holes deeper - they chucked a lot of sawdust out anyway. Whether they initially made the holes I can't say. The woodworm holes you can see are ones we thought we'd treated previously, but the treatment didn't seem to put off the bees. In the end we squirted an insecticide (Raid I think) down the holes.

I'd be interested in advice about these too - I think there are some in our roof timbers too.

[chris pp]

That isn't a carpenter bee Araucaria and it most definitely would not be digging holes, there's just so much confusion here that rather than write a page on this forum I will add a page to Planetepassion as soon as I get a chance.None of these solitary bees cause damage to dry, sound timber, they use an existing hole.

Also, very briefly, what people call "Capricorne" is another area of total confusion, "Capricorne" is a word that is added to a number of different Longhorn beetles and the only one that is of any concern is Capricorne des maisons (Hylotrupes bajulus) and this only attacks softwoods, not oak, walnut, chestnut etc. The Grande capricorne that is found in oak only uses living trees, once the timber is seasoned and after and larvae already present in the wood have departed that's it, there will be no more.

Chris

 

[WJT]

A I said in my original post, I have seen bees that don't look like Carpenter bees using the holes but have seen what I have seen on Google as Carpenter bees very occasionally flying about recently. The large holes in the beams above in my photo are very recent.

As far as Capricorne, that is what the experts here that have come out to have a look called them but perhaps they are Longhorn beetles. Sadly, we do have them in our oak beams.  Unfortunately I have seen numerous dead  bodies after they exit our oak beams.We have had numerous experts and differing opinions over the last four years as to what to do,  as a result we have done nothing. [:(] Many of the French here say all old houses in Dordogne have them and not to worry because they don't eat the heart of oak because it is too hard. But they do eat all of the outer wood.

We have them in most beams and you can see the holes and hear them. Very unfortunately we had some beams in one room sand blasted when we had a false ceiling taken down. The macon did this for us when blasting something else. I have since learned it was a big mistake because it just exposes even more of the Capricorne damage. The below are photos I just took of these oak beams that were sand blasted.

Perhaps now you may understand my concern about the appearance of perhaps new beasties eating at our wood. [:(]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010016-2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010017-2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010018-1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/HIF/P1010019-2.jpg[/IMG]

 

 

[Araucaria]

Chris - if mine was not a carpenter bee, it would be a help to know what it was. It was certainly a bee (I can post other pictures). And the wood was dry, and - apart from the occasional woodworm hole - wasn't - indeed isn't - damaged except where these larger holes were.

The bees went in and out of these holes, bringing out with them large quantities of sawdust. We watched them. And it wasn't softwood either: it's walnut, and not a veneer. Presumably it was using a hole made by some other insect, but if so, what would that have been? What would have happened if we'd allowed the bees' grubs to stay alive in the cupboard door?

Do tell.

[chris pp]

Yes you will have different types of solitary bees using wood that is that badly damaged, no they will not dig or eat it, just use the holes. I simply refer to my earlier post for now, I'll do it on the web site.

I'd love to meet your experts.[;-)] No offence, I just would.

Chris

[WJT]

[quote user="chris pp"]

Yes you will have different types of solitary bees using wood that is that badly damaged, no they will not dig or eat it, just use the holes. I simply refer to my earlier post for now, I'll do it on the web site.

I'd love to meet your experts.[;-)] No offence, I just would.

Chris

[/quote]

When I say experts, the first one was the company that did the termite diagnostics before we bought the house and we stupidly missed in the report that they said in small print that we had Capricorne. The other four were company's that gave us devis for treatment (expensive treatment). So obviously the last four had motives. No offence taken.

Just out of interest what is your opinion of what has happened and is happening to our oak beams?

[chris pp]

First of all, Grand Capricorne.

Contrairement à d'autres longicornes le cerdo attaque le bois vivant, et de surcroît assez profondément, ce qui peut induire une notable dévalorisation de l'arbre, et le cas échéant de ses grumes. Quand l'attaque est importante, et répétée, on peut même dire que le bois de chauffe est la seule solution possible tant l'arbre est taraudé en tous sens.

In answer to your question one possibility is that you have had work done on your house that involved using new wood, if any of this is new hardwood, oak or chestnut it may have had larvae present and if this was adjacent to your existing timber it may be that they are exiting via historic tunnels in the old timber. Seasoned oak that is dry is as hard as iron a few millimeters from the surface, nothing eats it, if anything did eat it these houses that are hundreds of years old would have fallen down long before now, especially as these species were more abundant in the past. Like many species their populations have been in steep decline.

Solitary bees of the type "mason bees" simply use an existing hole to lay their eggs in, each egg has it's own little food packet of nectar and pollen, the larvae do not eat the wood. The other solitary bees of the type "mining bees" do dig their own hole but only in soil.

Sure, if a solitary bee is using an existing hole there is likely to be some existing wood dust and particles that will be pushed out of the hole one way or another but this is not digging or chewing, it's just existing crumbs.

Chris

 

 

 

 

[WJT]

Chris, we have had work done but the Capricorne problem is one that was here when we bought the house. The work we had done didn't include new wood anyway other than a new roof a few months back. Even with the new roof the only wood added was the small "lattes" I think they are called that hold the tiles.

We definitely have an infestation that has been here a while (we have owned the house five years this coming June) and you can clearly see from the photos they have attacked our oak beams. I am constantly sweeping up the dust these little blighter's cause on a regular basis below these particular ones. As I mentioned we can hear them as well in all parts of the house.

By the way, the roofer did treat all of the beams with Xylophene and it hasn't helped one bit. From what we are told we must have the injections in order for the product to penetrate the wood deep enough to kill them. The painting and spraying of Xylophene was a complete waste of money.[:(]

Edit: This is going off subject because I am still interested in the Carpenter bees, perhaps a new post with a link here would be a good idea. That way comments on Capricorne could be made in the other thread.

[Araucaria]

Chris - the carpenter bee on your website is two or three times the size of the ones that we had in our wardrobe. If ours isn't a carpenter bee, what is it?

If it's a help, here's another picture of one of the bees:

[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/carpenter3.jpg[/IMG]

Our experience, from observation, was that we thought the amount of sawdust ejected from the hole was too large to have been the bee just hoovering to get the existing hole clear. But obviously short of cutting into a perfectly good walnut cupboard to see what was behind the surface holes, we couldn't have been certain of this. But it is absolutely certain that the wood was dry and - except where woodworm had had a go at certain parts of the wood - solid.

This picture shows the amount of sawdust created by one bee from a ceiling beam in twenty-four hours:

[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Vanman15/carpenter2.jpg[/IMG]

In your original post you mention "creating galleries deeper in the wood" which sounds to me very much like making the holes bigger. That's what we thought we saw. I couldn't personally say from my own experience that a wholly undamaged part of the wood was newly bored into by these bees, but equally I couldn't rule it out.

We killed them with some regret but we just couldn't live with a group of a dozen or so bees in our bedroom, whether or not they were damaging the wardrobe. They certainly seemed to be eating into the oak beams holding up the ceiling (also dry and otherwise undamaged). It was impractical to keep them out of the house: there are gaps around the window frames they got through easily, and in any case we like to sleep with the windows open.

[chris pp]

As I wrote above somewhere, it's not a carpenter bee, it looks to be a red mason bee.

From  http://www.insectpix.net/solitary_bees_gallery.htm

Osmia rufa  is one of the first bees you can expect to take up residence in a bee post.  It is one of our commonest bees.
This is another bee that causes concern  each spring. The red Mason bee nests in all kinds of holes or crevices, frequently in numbers, in crumbling masonry. It's very unlikely that the bee causes much, if any damage to buildings, as it only excavates mortar that is already crumbling. The female uses mud to construct her cells, hence the name mortar bee. She has two special horns on her face that she tamps mud with during nest building.

There is plenty on the web if you google Osmia rufa or red mason bee.

Chris

[WJT]

Just having looked at Chris's site I am not so sure what I thought to be Carpenter bees is what I saw. They were similar and all black but appeared to be slimmer than what is shown in the photo. However, the holes look different to the holes of the Capricorne inside the house and it seems strange that I saw something that is similar to a Carpenter bee flying about.[8-)]

The below site (scroll down a little for the Carpenter bees)  the first one does look a little like your bee Araucaria but the top part of the back is yellow with a black spot. I must say we do get a lot of dust from the Capricorne but only dust, you seem to have bits of wood along with the dust. [8-)]

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kendall-bioresearch.co.uk/SOLBEE3.GIF&imgrefurl=http://www.kendall-bioresearch.co.uk/solbee.htm&usg=__f0Jeqwyf-iJNyRhWx311dAhn7C4=&h=124&w=189&sz=8&hl=en&start=23&um=1&tbnid=50gGkACtKwHLdM:&tbnh=68&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarpenter%2Bbees%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26cr%3DcountryUK%257CcountryGB%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1

 

[Araucaria]

Thanks Chris, I'm sure you're right about the identification.

As you suggested, I've had a look at various bee sites on the internet. I can see that the red mason bee does seem to be a useful pollinator, and pretty harmless, if not exactly an ideal indoor household pet. We seem to be living in an area with these bees already present, so I'll be out making a bee post for them as soon as it stops raining: hopefully we'll then keep them outside the house, and out of our bedroom furniture.

I'm still a bit mystified by the amount of wood ejected. It does seem agreed that these bees have powerful jaws, and perhaps they do some excavating in reasonably good wood, without this being a behaviour commonly recognised by the experts. An "off-the-books" carpenter perhaps?

[ventodue]

Hi WJT,

[quote user="WJT"]  <snip> The large holes in the beams above in my photo are very recent.  As far as Capricorne, that is what the experts here that have come out to have a look called them but perhaps they are Longhorn beetles. [/quote]

Just to clear up any remaining confusion: as Chris said, 'Capricorne' and 'Longhorn beetle' are the French and English names for a family of beetles of which there are several different species.  The species found in buildings is the HOUSE Longhorn beetle or Capricorne des MAISONS.

[quote user="WJT"]  Sadly, we do have them in our oak beams.  Unfortunately I have seen numerous dead bodies after they exit our oak beams. [/quote]

1.  Are you SURE your beams are oak?

2.  Do you have any photos of the adult insects?

[quote user="WJT"] Many of the French here say all old houses in Dordogne have them and not to worry because they don't eat the heart of oak because it is too hard. But they do eat all of the outer wood. [/quote]

All of which is pretty much true!  Because the grubs live inside the timber, they are not easy to eradicate - surface treatment is largely a waste of time and money.

[quote user="WJT"] I have since learned it was a big mistake because it just exposes even more of the Capricorne damage. [/quote]

Not really - the damage was already there - it's just that now you can see it.  You didn't make it any worse.

[quote user="WJT"] Perhaps now you may understand my concern about the appearance of perhaps new beasties eating at our wood.[/quote]

Fret not.  A few carpenter or mason bees are nothing to be concerned about.  They don't do anything to wood or mortar that is already in good condition.

HTH

Craig

[WJT]

 

Craig, thank you very much for your response.

 

[quote user="ventodue"]

[quote user="WJT"]  Sadly, we do have them in our oak beams.  Unfortunately I have seen numerous dead bodies after they exit our oak beams. [/quote]

1.  Are you SURE your beams are oak?

Yes, all of them are oak except the ones in our lounge that are chestnut. I know the photos look deceiving and perhaps appear to look like pine. The floorboards above I recently found out is unfortunately pine, in fact the whole of the upstairs floor is pine. However, even though they appear new in the photos they aren't. A false ceiling was taken down that concealed them from below. Not sure of the age but according to one person part of them are quite old and the other about 30 to 40 years old.

2.  Do you have any photos of the adult insects?

Unfortunately, no. But will take a photo of the next one I see.

[quote user="WJT"] Many of the French here say all old houses in Dordogne have them and not to worry because they don't eat the heart of oak because it is too hard. But they do eat all of the outer wood. [/quote]

All of which is pretty much true!  Because the grubs live inside the timber, they are not easy to eradicate - surface treatment is largely a waste of time and money.

[quote user="WJT"] I have since learned it was a big mistake because it just exposes even more of the Capricorne damage. [/quote]

Not really - the damage was already there - it's just that now you can see it.  You didn't make it any worse.

Yes, that is what I meant. Unfortunately, I nor the macon didn't know that by sandblasting you expose the channels. It would have been much easier to disguise the damage before having them sandblasted.[:(]

[quote user="WJT"] Perhaps now you may understand my concern about the appearance of perhaps new beasties eating at our wood.[/quote]

Fret not.  A few carpenter or mason bees are nothing to be concerned about.  They don't do anything to wood or mortar that is already in good condition.

Thank you for that. However, it is shocking to see all of these new holes in beams that we paid to have installed between some newly fitted windows. It really does look awful. [:(]

HTH

Craig

[/quote]

 

 I think I will just have to spray the exterior reclaimed beams between the windows and keep my fingers crossed that there will be no more damage. As for the Capricorne, I just don't know.[:(] Thank you again.