Re: Divorce Tontine & Access

[Debra]

You've got the gist of it - it's very difficult to sort out a tontine in the event of divorce because neither of you actually owns the property until one of you dies.  ('in her name but tontine with me' doesn't actually make sense - are you sure it's not just the usufruct which is en tontine?)  If she is claiming it is hers, and the whole property is en tontine, you could equally claim it as yours.  Even if it's just the usufruct which is en tontine it's still dodgy.  The resulting battle could be very costly.

Where are you both resident?  In France I understand the divorce laws are different to the UK depending on your marriage regime.  There is one type of regime, for instance, which means that whatever you own when you enter the marriage remains your own (though a clause tontine would even mess this one up).  If you are both resident in the UK and were married there, then everything goes into the pot once you are married and as a starting point is split 50/50 upon divorce.  Obviously a court would consider the ability of each party to move on and have somewhere to live and if there are children involved, who they would live with and whether they have a home.  You really need to seek legal advice in the country where the divorce is taking place.  If that is in the UK, you need someone who knows French law or knows someone who does!

[Davidball]

Thanks for your swift answer.

Married and both residing in the UK 19 years.

House in her name but signed Tontine agreement at purchase

as I have a daughter from a previous relationship.

Divorcing in UK (Had Nici already - holding on Absolute til this is sorted)

Think I can see where the divorce is going, but wifey has told the Mayor that the house is hers,

and he has told her I can't enter the property without her authorisation. I believe that in taking out

the Tontine clasue at purchase, even though the deeds are in her name, it is actually in contract to both of us . . .

Complicated!

D

[Debra]

It still doesn't make sense - what did the tontine clause say?  As far as I knew, the deeds weren't in anyone's name with an en  tontine but stated both names that had the en tontine interest in the property.  You can soon let the mayor know that she is telling fibs - and explain en tontine to him as he may not know about it (as it's mostly UK couples who use it and is a foreign idea to the French).  I can ask my Mum about is as she bought en tontine with my step-Dad but she (or he) might wonder why I'm asking!!

Under UK divorce law it's in the joint pot and I believe the French have to take UK law into account since that's where you're getting divorced.  However, this en tontine thing is something which doesn't have an equivalent in the UK, so it's dodgy from the UK as well as the French angle!

[Debra]

Part of the reason it doesn't make sense is you say you signed the en tontine agreement because you have a daughter.  If the property was in her name only there would have been no need to do this as it would all be hers anyway in the event of your death.  In the event of her death, only the spouse's reserved inheritor percentage would go to you and the rest to other reserved inheritors.  The main reason for an en tontine is so that a couple with children, especially from former marriages, can make sure that the spouse inherits the whole of the property directly, with no part going to the children.  Hence it didn't make sense in your case if she had no children and the property was in her name (unless it was to stop any of it going to her parents or brothers and sisters under the old law?) 

[Debra]

I'm sure this would get more notice in the correct section - Legal issues in France!

[Russethouse]

Post moved - while I agree that the post bag gets most traffic, this is a very specific legal question and I think you may get better answers here.

[Debra]

David - my Mum phoned so I asked her anyway!  She was certain that both her and my step-Dad's names appear on the deeds with an en tontine clause.  But when I asked her how it was actually written and was it shown on the deeds or on a registry type document like it used to be in the UK, she became uncertain!  Have you actually seen the deeds to the French house?  Has anyone else on here bought with this clause who can give David a clue about how it would work/be expressed on the deeds?

This article http://www.midi-life.com/House%20Buying/ClauseTontine.htm sums up how I thought it worked and in this case your wife is telling fibs.  However,  I have heard of people who have tried (don't know if they succeeded) to buy the fixed property in one name but the usufruct jointly with an en tontine clause, which may be what you did??  If this is the case,  you do still have a joint interest (as defined in that article; you both own it wholly but not definitely until someone dies) in the usage part of the property.  (life interest, as you said).

There is also a comprehensive explanation of tontine on here: http://www.frenchentree.com/france-lot-quercy-family-schools/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=13928

[Kitty]

I wonder why your wife said that you couldn't go to the house?  Sounds a bit aggressive to me and not a good tactic when trying to sort things out amically.  Hope you get to the bottom of this.  I have a tontine clause but, so far, am not proposing to divorce my husband.  Mind you, the way that he cleans his teeth has been making me wonder...

[Russethouse]

This thread is being removed at the behest of the author